Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[ForteNightshade]

First and foremost, MANY do like it, even if not EVERYONE does. So that's incorrect from the jump.

The reason to bring up history is because of who did ask for it. The 1% like blaming everything on casuals, but casuals didn't ask for this, because (as we're all painfully aware) casuals don't tend to do things like line up buffs. Many don't even USE buffs, much less optimize their windows or worry about alignment.

Yes, many don't like it now - did I not literally say this? - but how we got here was people asking for it combined with people not really understanding how bad it would be/get.

You are correct with your analysis of WHY that is (the big hits + buff alignment + huge crit >>>>>> all ultra meta), but most people didn't see that coming, and not nearly enough to have a mass complaint about it before implementation.

So here we are now.

Maybe people will be a bit more cautious in the future, but I doubt it. I do hope 7.0 sees some kind of retraction/reversal, though.

That isn't a correction but you assuming the average player even has an opinion on the two minute meta, which largely doesn't impact their gameplay one way or another. You essentially took my qualifying of "some" and changed it to "many" just to amplify your own argument without any basis to back up such an assertion. At best, it's arguing semantics.

Neither did the raid community, which is far larger than the 1%. You're painting with that broad brush again and assuming everyone on the opposing side wanted this two minute meta and only now turned against it. While you acknowledge my analysis, you seemingly missed the point of it. People didn't see it coming because there was literal no way for them to without massive guesswork. We didn't have nearly as many high potency abilities nor was the crit scaling in Shadowbringers as poorly balanced. Hence why I specifically brought up Dancer and Tech Step. This is likely a result of the stat squish and a lack of necessary adjustments. How are players supposed to complain or even worry about something they have zero knowledge of being a problem because it quite literally didn't exist?

You're essentially blaming the playerbase for not being clairvoyant instead of the dev team for not properly balancing the changes.

All of that aside, no the casual players didn't ask for this but they are the reason it happened. Yoshida outright said their intent was to make things more approachable and lower the skill floor. We know this when he stated the removal for maintenance buffs like Straight Shot and Heavy Shot were removed specifically because casual players weren't maintaining them and it caused a sizable gap in damage between them and the better players. The two minute meta exists not as a response to the 1% but due to casual players not pressing their buttons properly and the dev team insisting on making this game as accessible as possible, personal responsibility be damned.

Even taken at face value, you realize your argument amounts to SE actually listening to the supposed 1% and changing the combat system to accommodate their desire to parse. I don't think I need to explain why that's laughably ridiculous.

[Rehayem]

Xeno has a pretty good take on it++

https://youtu.be/I3LZ65gwYGA?t=202

I like his statement "I hope Square Enix takes this and understands how shitty of a design this is."

When I played healer in TERA, I was actually healing, sometimes barely scraping in some dps in there, when I played healer in Aion, I had to be sure tank's HP was always at 100% and manage my MP carefully and then maybe I had 5 seconds to squeeze in some dot in there. Even healing in GW2 is more fun than this, and just saddens me so much lol.

FFXIV is the only game that actually made me not want to play healer for the first time in years, because of how awful the design is in its current condition. They have a chance to fix this, they really do, but it feels like... they don't want to do it, otherwise it becomes "overwhelming" for some people.

[Renathras]

Xeno has a pretty good take on it++

https://youtu.be/I3LZ65gwYGA?t=202

It's interesting how much his comment section disagrees with him and with the majority of posters here, though.

That isn't a correction but you assuming the average player even has an opinion on the two minute meta,

That's...my...point:

They don't.

I'm assuming the exact opposite of what you said I am.

Did raiders ask for buff timers to be more unified? Yes or no?

I mean, the answer is "some/many did, some didn't have an opinion either way, no one was really saying at the time it was a bad idea", or something akin to that. And yes, I agree people didn't see it coming - I've literally said this, what, 2 or 3 times now? - perhaps try reading my posts before hitting the reply button...

The casual players didn't ask for this while raiders (SOME raiders, but RAIDERS did). You can't blame the change on casuals for what raiders wanted. Yoshi P said "skill floor", not "casuals", and while you think of the two as synonymous, what you call casuals aren't the skill floor as they aren't running high end content. What he's talking about are mid-core raiders.

.

That said, I think everyone who considers the question (hardcore, midcore, and casual) is more or less in some agreement it's a bad design. We'll see if 7.0 moves away from it.

[Semirhage]

Oh, you know about healing, Roe. You just enjoy DPSing and particularly non-healing support more. You've even said it yourself in basically every conversation we've ever had on the topic of what you enjoy about healers, both here in FFXIV, in other MMOs, and in non-MMOs like D&D/Baldur's Gate/etc. Getting mad at someone for pointing out your own views is just strange. Especially since that person isn't attacking those positions.

As I have said: There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Nor have I ever said there was. The "real healer" argument was your and Semi's, not mine. I've long embraced going back to the ARR model of Pure (WHM) + Support (SCH) Healer so we can have both existing in the same space, or baring that, making Support an actual full role (which I fully expect will never happen). You and she are the only ones arguing different.

See what I mean about Sylphies defining anyone better than them at healing as Not Real Healers? The consistency is fascinating.

There's this weird cognitive dissonance world they live in where you can never get it through to them that spamming healing spells for their own sake isn't how efficiency works. And that the better you get at healing, the more of your time is spent in your downtime. And since you spend more and more time in your downtime, you'd like that downtime to be engaging.

They will, without fail, always, spin that into "oh so you like the non-healing side of your kit more huh? So you're not a HEALer then, you spend more time SUPPORTING/being a DPS in sheep's clothing! Aha!"

My theory is that they've defined exactly where they're at as the "correct" amount of skilled one needs to be at healing, and anyone who likes pushing their limits otherwise is "not actually a healer" for some ego reason or something.

I have mained a healer in every online game and most of the offline games I've played. But no, since I don't enjoy giving myself an RSI and killing brain cells spamming Glare on field mobs while I "weave all of my heals" on myself, I don't know what the true healing trenches are like.

I prefer to wave all of that fluff away and look at the line in the sand. It's A L W A Y S "don't you dare make (downtime) more intensive". You know, the part of the kit they just finished saying they don't like, or don't like engaging with, or isn't "important". You could suggest a thousand different ways to do so and make the current 121111111111 gameplay near-equivalent to a rotation that somewhat activates your brain. Doesn't matter. Don't care. Someone, somewhere, will "judge" them for not being perfect because they're dirty evil elitist casual-hating raiders.

And then the insecurity that's behind their entire position neatly reveals itself. Every time.

[Sebazy]

It's interesting how much his comment section disagrees with him and with the majority of posters here, though.

Where? Can you link or cite as I'm not seeing it. Scrolling through the YouTube comments is a mixture of people outright agreeing, missing older content and commenting that tank self sustain is too high sprinkled in with a few comedy shots fired at Rin/Dice. Are you counting the comments about Tank/DPS sustain as disagreeing with him or is it something I'm missing in the stream chat? I'll openly admit I pay zero attention to stream chat as it's invariably little more than trolling.

[Renathras]

See what I mean about Sylphies defining anyone better than them at healing as Not Real Healers? The consistency is fascinating.

1) We've been over this, I'm not a Sylphie since I do damage.

2) Sylphie is a slur/insult at this point, so probably reportable...

3) Show me where I said she was "Not Real Healer"? Can you show me where I said that? I said that SHE SAID HERSELF she enjoys DPSing and non-healing support (she's mentioned loving classes like D&D Cleric and Druid for their NON-HEALING utility abilities), and her description of what she considered a healer was in that same vein:

My view is this: Healers focus on keeping the party alive, with extra duties like mitigating damage, debuffing enemies to deal less damage, buffing allies to deal more damage/beneficial effects as the game's system allows. However, that's all part of the overall 'duty' of the healer. And that 'overall duty' is the same as the other two roles of the trinity: do what is necessary to aid the team to successful completion of the content. And yes, that means that if there is a dead GCD where you do not need to heal, there are no buffs or debuffs to refresh, nothing else that takes priority, it means 'do damage, even if it is really weak', because every little helps and there's times where the boss enrages at 0.1%. As a personal anecdote, my first clear of P8S was so close, the enrage had finished it's cast and people were dying in that staggered fashion. And my last action was a swiftcasted Glare. Had I not done that, it's entirely possible that we'd have actually wiped.

Dealing damage is part and parcel of being not just a healer, but a team player in a team game. We don't tell the tanks to 'only keep aggro, damage is the DPS's job', we don't tell supports to only stand in lane and leech XP from the carry, we don't run around as Lifeline in Apex Legends only pressing her Tactical to heal people. No, we also find time to do damage as tank, harass the enemy laner as the support/set up ganks, and shoot at people in Apex, even as Lifeline. We do what we have to, to raise the chance of success for the team. Even if it's not necessarily in the name of the Trinity Role we're assigned. After all, we don't complain that Melee can heal themselves with Bloodbath, do we?

[emphasis added]
[Aside: We do, in fact, complain that Melee can heal themselves with Bloodbath... <_< ]

This isn't me saying anything other than looking at what she's said over the last months of comments she's made. Should I ignore her saying what she likes and assume she likes something different than what she says she likes?

And we could look at what you've said about what you like about healers in other games and MMOs as well, with the same result. You guys are of a similar mind.

And as I have said repeatedly: There's nothing wrong with that.

[ EDIT: Actually, never mind, it's not even worth it anymore. ]

they live in
get it through to them
They will
that they've defined
their entire position

In most circles, talking about people present in the third person (even and especially while you're insulting and lying about them) is considered extremely rude.

.

Once again: WHERE DID I SAY in that post you quoted that "you're not a HEALer" or "DPS in sheep's clothing"?

Talk about ego...

Maybe if you actually read what people said and stopped putting words in their mouth...but that shows the insecurity behind someone's position which neatly reveals itself. Every time.

As it turns out, I've also mained healer in every online game and most offline games I've played (all of the ones that HAVE a healer I've done it on).

.

EDIT:

Where? Can you link or cite as I'm not seeing it. Scrolling through the YouTube comments is a mixture of people outright agreeing, missing older content and commenting that tank self sustain is too high sprinkled in with a few comedy shots fired at Rin/Dice. Are you counting the comments about Tank/DPS sustain as disagreeing with him or is it something I'm missing in the stream chat? I'll openly admit I pay zero attention to stream chat as it's invariably little more than trolling.

Fair, let me get some examples. Though I suppose part of this depends on what part you want to call disagreement. Specifically I mean disagreeing with his position that this shows that there's a problem with healers. There seem to be a lot of comments suggesting the problem is with Tanks/DPS Jobs and with the fight design (which, to be fair to him, he did mention as well):

"Does this say how healers aren't needed, or does it say how DPS and tanks have WAAAAAY too MUCH healing and mitigation? Those are two very different arguments, with two very different solutions."

"i liked healers doing dps at first but i just find it annoying now"

"That’s what I’m saying
I do Mentor roulette and get ifrit Ex with multiple sprouts in party
Now that’s a real healing experience
I HATE how the game is designed where healer dps is an expectation
In my opinion, healers dpsing should be an optimization. Not the expectation
High level healing is so ----ing boring. (It’s really only fun when ur in Rouls with new people and shit hits the fan)
When clearing, Your entire plan is to never use a heal GCD. And I think that’s just shit design"

"I mean this also shows how broken ass tanks are right now lol. they just dont need healers anymore and dps just eed it if they actually --- up mechanics but not really for anything else.
I get that people want healers more iteresting but the flaw is ot just with them."

"Do you realize that giving healer 1 extra dot doesn't change the fact they are still replaceable in this ultimate? a main job of healer is healing, and the reason why dps rotation is boring is because the healing is very monotone and predictable. if the fight has more "randomness" in healing that requires the healer to use gcd healing more, the dps rotation can still be simple since they have to put their focus on something else. It also helps fixing this problem since other jobs cannot have the flexibility of GCD heal like a "true" healer job"

"This is where a lot of people get it wrong. It's not healer design, it's the design of the other jobs, especially tanks and the design of the encounters themselves.

"People will just put the blame on healer design because they're bored AF playing the role. SE just needs to give them more to do by taking away the busted ass abilities that invalidates them in content. It's as simple as that."

"I agree it does not fix the issue and that the problem lies with tanks. I just thought there would be other ways than damn damage rotations to make healers more fun as well. If I wanted those I would play dps. I would rather use cleanse or even resque for mechanics that require it than them giving us a rotation.
Of course destroying the root of the problem would work but I am not so optimistic that square could fix that in the near future…"

"I understand your point, but part of the reason we got to this point is the "just throw another dot " on the healer and walk away. Sorry, I want a little more attention to each healer job that this tired old solution, and I don't see why all 4 healers should get the same solution."

"The problem with healing currently is that it's expected of them to not only do damage but also keep the party alive. They start with more responsibility to begin with and naturally less people pick up the role because why do something the hard way? This role disparity can be clearly seen in fights that require more of healers such as TEA (where most of the time forming a group is spent looking for healers, followed by tanks (again role with more responsibility). Now, you would say - oh, just make them heal more and decrease their damage; unfortunately that won't work because you increase the mitigation and dps requirements of the other roles, as well as make fight design harder (to put more damage requires more time spent casting/channeling that damage unless you put dots). Essentially the designers are put in a predicament where substantially changing how 1 role works, greatly affects the others - there is too much interdependency between roles. With how things are right now, a drastic overhaul of role design needs to be considered or these problems will keep appearing in the future - making fights seem incorrectly designed and/or tested while the underlying problem is overlooked."

"Everytime they make a role responsibility too hard in a fight suddenly that role is lacking from the party finder. Healings to hard cause theres dots on everything? suddenly less healers, tanking is too hard for some reason, suddenly no tanks. Its already in the rest of the game now. Tanking is the ''perceived'' hardest role to get into because of tank anxiety and the responsibility of ''being the leader'' (also helps theres not that many to choose from) And a game like this is often shaped around what the community wants, theyre always gonna have to pander to one group or the other. The people who want a challenge but dont wanna be flamed for not being good enough, and the people who just don't care and want things hard as possible so they can suffer until finally getting that moment of satisfaction clearing"

"p8s: constant bleeds = people complain its too hard to heal
top: only mit checks = people complain healers dont do anything

i agree that healing sucks atm but can people decide"

"I really dont think this is just a healer problem. them being able to do this is cuz tanks are so broken they dont need healers anymore. they can just heal themsel while doing damage and all"

"I'm only a few raid tiers deep (First raid was E12S) into healing on FFXIV and the biggest take away I have as time progressed is not only am I discouraged from hardcasting ANY heals (maybe preshields), but mitigations are being pushed away from my responsibility and given to DPS. So like no matter how well a healer does, if the team doesn't mit it just makes the healer look bad. So now we're in this fucked up world where the only meta we have is where I mash a single dps button, keep up my dot, and pray my DPS use their mits otherwise I'm getting thrown under the bus because there's just physically nothing I can do to prevent deaths if dps fumble their responsibilities. I 100% think that's why there was that HUGE healer debacle at the start of this last raid tier. Honestly if they just deleted my offensive dps button and made me hardcast heals and weave mits/ogcd emergency heals I'd be ALL for it.

Let healers control the entirety of mitigation and healing for the team excluding tanks. What sucks is playing PF is actually exciting (and infuriating) as a healer because you gotta make on the fly mitigation swaps, move CDs around to compensate for the complete dipshits that quadruple mit a 40% raidwide so there's nothing for the massive 100%+ coming up etc."

"I will believe everyone's complaints that healing is easy when healers aren't always the last filled role in pf. If fights required more gcd healing then imagine how bad of an experience it would be playing with your typical pf healer that refuses to heal for their parse"

"I don't think the fight is really that bad. Sure its definitely mundane in some bits but honestly you could argue that about every ultimate really."

"I agree it’s impressive but “No healers”, except clemency, divine veil, n-flash, shake it off, Phoenix, curing waltz, improv, vercure, mantra and crest as well as bloodbaths and second winds plus mitigation
...
[in a reply] that’s why I said it’s still impressive, but it’s not like they had no heals at all lol"

"I am a massive fan of Dark Souls challenge runs so doing something in an unconventional but harder way seems only like a good thing to me but whatever."

"It kinda baffles me how this game can do something, and people will hate it so much.

P5s-p8s there was lack of healers for a bit in pf because of the amount of stuff healers had to do outside of dps, so they made the next content less roles.

They made TOP and the fact that you can clear this without a healer shows that they don’t prioritize roles?

I guess I can say that comparing savage fights with ultimate fights isn’t fair, nor on the same level, which could be true. All I can say is that it’s a pattern when content is released."

"IMO, in dungeons and raids, healers need to heal, and not DPS. Now whether that means that content needs to be harder, players need to take more damage, or healer roles need to be revamped, is debatable. "

I'm pretty sure there's something in there you can classify as "disagrees".

.

EDIT2: I'm not the one "flaming", she is. In any case, I saw your post after I replied to her and so got those quotes for ya. Ta-dah! \o/

[Sebazy]

<snip>

Oi, less flaming, more answering actually interesting questions!

Where were you finding all the people disagreeing with Xeno? Can you link to them?

Ta

*edit*

Ta!

And I had a feeling it would be that sort of stuff yeah. I don't really think it's fair to say that those are people disagreeing with Xeno. Rather it's a lot of different perspectives on what the problem is. I'm pretty confident in saying that we can both agree that you can't really put your finger on one single issue that's the root of all this discourse right?

Tanks soloing even the roughest level cap dungeon bosses in itself isn't the problem.
Healers having an absurd number of oGCD heals now in itself isn't the problem.
DPS having as much responsibility for mitigation as healers in itself isn't the problem.
Fights typically being much slower puzzles vs the frantic and unforgiving smackdowns of the past in itself isn't the problem.

It's a combination of the above and more that's gotten us to this point. I've been saying that SE are painting themselves into a corner with healer design for at least 5 years now. The responses are diverse not because Xeno is 'wrong' but because the issues are manyfold at his point.

There are definite a few that are going against Xeno's narrative for sure, but IMO many of those are either flat out incorrect, unfair or just missing the point maybe through language barriers or just being obtuse:

'"This is where a lot of people get it wrong. It's not healer design, it's the design of the other jobs, especially tanks and the design of the encounters themselves.''

Healer design isn't the sole problem, but it's absolutely part of it.

"p8s: constant bleeds = people complain its too hard to heal
top: only mit checks = people complain healers dont do anything''

Sweeping generalisations and stereotypes are bad mmmkay?

"I really dont think this is just a healer problem. them being able to do this is cuz tanks are so broken they dont need healers anymore. they can just heal themsel while doing damage and all"

It's as much a content problem as it is a Tank sustain problem, example 1: RubicanteEX

''Let healers control the entirety of mitigation and healing for the team excluding tanks. What sucks is playing PF is actually exciting (and infuriating) as a healer because you gotta make on the fly mitigation swaps, move CDs around to compensate for the complete ****** that quadruple mit a 40% raidwide so there's nothing for the massive 100%+ coming up etc."

Why are you citing this as someone disagreeing?

[MisterNublet]

https://twitter.com/imJillTime/statu...642611206?s=20

[CelestiCer]

1) We've been over this...

We have. I recognize you...

Recalled your long drawn out paragraphs on the DSP-Subsection with zero valid points. The lack of game-know-how reflects your credentials as does your advocacy to lobotomize Job designs further. Xeno's makes valid points, but we don't need a streamer to highlight something that's been a glaring issue for years... its just nice that someone is shedding some light on it. You state wild claims often without any proof.

But if there is one thing I'd like to request like I did back in the DPS-Subsection... Will you freaking stop editing your post to be above 3000 characters? have you tried condensing your argument after you proof read it? Last time it was over 5500 to still make zero good points in every post drowning out other posts... like stop DX<

[AmiableApkallu]

Fair, let me get some examples. *snip*

I think the real takeaway is the seeming agreement that there is a problem in need of fixing. Unsurprisingly, the solution one favors colors how one describes what the problem is (tanks/DPS are busted with their mits and heals! no, it's the encounter that's busted for not dealing enough damage! no, healers need more interesting downtime! etc. etc. etc.).