Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[4clubbedace]

I'm not complaining about healing requirements after doing it in Savage. What a small group does just to prove they can do it doesn't represent a significant portion of the playerbase.

from another thread

[GaiusDrakon]

from another thread

our standards are so low now

i remember when healing a dungeon during HW was more engaging than healing a fourth-floor Savage in week 1

a "significant portion of the playerbase" do not touch Savage, or even Extreme. But the issue is the worst in casual content

so asking for more engaging healer gameplay actually benefits the significant portion of the playerbase most because it'll make casual content much more fun on healer

if anything people like you miss the entire point: you shouldn't have to feel the healing requirements in Savage or Ultimate to feel fun playing healer.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Thats it NERF EVERY SINGLE TANK NOW SE.

Im so sick and tired of seeing how exploitative and OP tank mitigation is. It should not be this way. If you're gonna butcher healer's toolkits to be just flavors of heal rather than damage, then flippin commit to that design choice and make tanks not being able to self-sustain themselves so much. This is so ridiculous. I'm not even happy for that team, I would be if this were an offline game where it doesnt matter but in an online combat community where we have these 3 roles, one role should not outperform the other roles's specialization. Its dumb.

[Payotz]

I think WoW is the one I've played where if you are a healer...you WILL need to heal and almost exclusively do that.

And it shows, since they outright said that FFXIV healing (or at the very least, they described FFXIV healing) is not very interesting, and they actively try to avoid that design.


SE has designed themselves into a corner with healer design. They're not even heal checks, they're all binary Mitigation Checks.
Doesn't matter if you are a great healer, if your BLM greeded that Despair and missed the Addle, ya'll are gonna listen to Heroes again for the 1100th time. (Not personal experience I swear)

[Elissar]

Community when a warrior cleared Pandaemonium solo: hahahaha fell cleave go brrrrr
Community when a party cleared TOP without healers:

[Atelier-Bagur]

I wish they reeeally take into consideration and overhaul the game's combat. Its so detrimental to the experience I feel at this point. Not only is it not as responsive as other MMOs, but its also too easy, not as flexible in job design and the standard MMO holy trinity that they've set up doesnt work at all.

[CelestiCer]

" Just go play Ultimate " is the most dismissive phrase that came from our director to defend hollowing out Job designs... this thread from a year ago has never been more relevant.

Complexity/Nuances give Jobs much needed depth. Flavor skills removed when none of which stood in the way of any Ultimate's/Fights/Mechanics being created in EW. Somehow this is used as argument points to defend it to. Where all these players come from suffering from seasoning allergy?... (like what in the...) For crying out lou... we have a team now that " Cleared TOP Ultimate without Healers ". I don't wanna hear... how homogenization to this degree in EW was needed to achieve those fights and mechanics.

And there are Raiders that actually support this! gladly accepting every simplifications... with the empty promise of better mechanics and fights that 99% of the player-base will never even touch. Although... Parser masochism-syndrome could be a thing, as anything that stands in the way of a shining parse ( players included ) is just a nuisance. So any simplifications to them is welcomed, utterly idiotic.

Increasing Skill-Ceiling can be done without increasing the Skill-Floor, and that's what players advocate. This encourages Job mastery that not only will feel Satisfying? but pushing Jobs to their limits becomes " Optional " allowing an avenue for Skill-Expression everywhere you take your Jobs. Not just at Ultimate, which is " Fun ". Stop hollowing out our Jobs to Balance and Fix absolutely nothing!

• Keep my Job fun? and any content is more likely fun to do
• Turn my Job boring? and most content is likely boring

It's that simple. And during content drought? it is glaringly obvious how boring Job designs are. It's no wonder the advice Yoshi P gives players is " to play other Games ".

[Payotz]

I wish they reeeally take into consideration and overhaul the game's combat. Its so detrimental to the experience I feel at this point. Not only is it not as responsive as other MMOs, but its also too easy, not as flexible in job design and the standard MMO holy trinity that they've set up doesnt work at all.

I don't think they can even do an overhaul, cause that would require them remaking all the fights and content from HW -> EW. I honestly don't really know what they can do other than to preserve the game state from ARR -> EW and try and make kits that function differently 7.0 onwards. This would of course, alienate a lot of the core healers that they've gotten from the initial ShB combat overhaul, and that's not really a thing I would wish onto anyone. It sucks to have something you love taken away from you.

So yeah. No idea really. If anything's possible, I'd love for them to just preserve multiple game states depending on the expansions. ARR content has ARR hotbars and job design tuning, HW content has HW hotbars and job design and tuning etc... which is totally unrealistic. The last thing I could think of is for them to just start designing a new MMO, but uhh, something tells me they'd rather do something with NFTs rather than something that would replace their "good PR" game.

[Renathras]

[ EDIT: ] Oh, just curious, anyone check on the JP forums and see what Japanese players are saying about this? I can't Japanese, but I'm curious if their viewpoint is similar or not... [ :ENDEDIT ]

.

I think these two quotes are kind of the takeaways of import here:

Just to make it clear, this is a very comp specific accomplishment made by exceptionally skilled players. No one is going to suddenly recruit five DPS for their 6.4 static. It simply highlights TOP, specifically, being poorly optimized and the fundamental flaw with giving so much healing to other roles while simultaneously refusing to increase the damage enough to make it necessary.

This pretty much sums it up.

On top of it all, there is no real reason for downtime between healing phases to be as high as it is. At least in savage and ultimate modes, forcing healers to spam their GCD heals should be nothing to be afraid of.
If developers are ok with having me spam Malefic over and over, they should also be ok with having me spam Benefic II non-stop. On paper I'm still just spaming one button, but at least that button does what my job is supposed to do.

.

lol you don't raid at a high level, so you don't realize that your suggestions won't change anything; in fact you shot down the only encounter-related suggestion that might change something: a much larger HP pool

everything you mentioned has been done before, and if you go back into those old fights with current toolkits the same problem persists.

PROPOSE ALREADY.

My suggestions come from...raiders. Sebezy (the person I replied to) has made similar points in the past, as has much of the Healer forum. The RAIDERS in it. Their conclusion is that it couldn't be done with the game as a whole because it would make normal content too hard.

Seriously, you're being creepy stalker now. I guess you can keep doing it, but...

It doesn’t take one to do Ultimate or Savage to see things for what they are fundamentally if they’ve played the game long enough. I recently saw the TOP Clear and I can see why every Healer is mad. Yoshida said to Go do Ultimate? We did exactly that and then some. The moment TOP was completed without a Healer was when Healers were considered unnecessary.

Who needs Healers when you have everyone have self-sustain equivalent to the potency you’re pumping out in damage? Or for Tanks, having the self-sustain to survive to the next Tankbuster without any outside sources(PLD, WAR). It becomes a problem at high-end due to the fact that the skill requirement is raised from a mediocre bar to a high level to clear a check Week 1.

At the highest level(Ultimate) jobs should be considered at their peak performance due to the constraints required by the fight - especially on patch as they said. This means Pots, Food, the works.

Yoshida needs to rethink Healer design in general with the Battle Team; otherwise, Healers will die out or it’ll be “when they feel like it”.

Bingo and agreed.

Granted (as the quotes above) that this isn't just every Tom, Dick, and Harry that can do this. It's like how PotD has been cleared with AST, but that doesn't mean everyone can hop on AST and clear it. But as far as the proposed changes go, those are changes that hardcore players have been suggesting for months if not years to actually make the healing kits matter, and if there is a place in the game to push those, it would be Ultimate.

from another thread

Also true.

so asking for more engaging healer gameplay actually benefits the significant portion of the playerbase most because it'll make casual content much more fun on healer

Much more fun... to you.

Many people play Healer Jobs because they don't enjoy pressing DPS buttons. Like, they don't find that "fun". The word you're looking for is "tedious". Something people do because they have to, not because they want to. People who want to do DPS play DPS Jobs. People that want to do DPS with a splash of healing play DNC, SMN, or RDM. People that want to do moderate DPS but more support while still healing a lot play PLD or WAR.

Thats it NERF EVERY SINGLE TANK NOW SE.

Im so sick and tired of seeing how exploitative and OP tank mitigation is. It should not be this way. If you're gonna butcher healer's toolkits to be just flavors of heal rather than damage, then flippin commit to that design choice and make tanks not being able to self-sustain themselves so much. This is so ridiculous. I'm not even happy for that team, I would be if this were an offline game where it doesnt matter but in an online combat community where we have these 3 roles, one role should not outperform the other roles's specialization. Its dumb.

ALSO agreed. This doesn't prove Healers are broken, it proves Tanks and DPS Jobs are broken and have FAR too much healing and mitigation.

And it shows, since they outright said that FFXIV healing (or at the very least, they described FFXIV healing) is not very interesting, and they actively try to avoid that design.


SE has designed themselves into a corner with healer design. They're not even heal checks, they're all binary Mitigation Checks.
Doesn't matter if you are a great healer, if your BLM greeded that Despair and missed the Addle, ya'll are gonna listen to Heroes again for the 1100th time. (Not personal experience I swear)

Correct me if I'm wrong on the era, but this was going from Wrath to Cataclysm, right? I remember that being an issue in Wrath and they tried to course correct with Cataclysm (arguably successfully) and onward. Meaning it is entirely possible.

I don't think they can even do an overhaul, cause that would require them remaking all the fights and content from HW -> EW.

I've seen this argument a lot, but it doesn't make sense. They've done at least 2 major overhauls in healing during the game's history; one during HW (a shift towards more damage focus), another in SB (removal of Cleric), and another in ShB (shifting to the current paradigm of tons of big heals and super slim, even identical, DPS kits), and that's not counting the AST reworks, of which there have been at least two, and the removal of Nocturnal Stance in EW, and about to be another in 7.0.

They didn't redo all existing content either time.

WoW did a major focus shift from Wrath into Cataclysm because of the exact same problem with their healer design in Wrath (people were running 5 man Heroic dungeons with no Healers because Tanks were so OP), and they didn't redesign all prior content to match that paradigm, either.

Moreover, when FFXIV did the stat squish, they effectively retuned all existing content, and for unsync they added the Epic Echo.

It's not at all an unrealistic idea as it's already been done in various ways multiple times, both with and without changing prior encounters.

[Payotz]

Correct me if I'm wrong on the era, but this was going from Wrath to Cataclysm, right? I remember that being an issue in Wrath and they tried to course correct with Cataclysm (arguably successfully) and onward. Meaning it is entirely possible.

Oh this is a Dragonflight bluepost. They were addressing the fact that they had to bump player HP up by 30% because of how much damage they're adding into the content and how strong healers are. Or at the very least, that's what I remember the context being.