Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Payotz]

I think WoW is the one I've played where if you are a healer...you WILL need to heal and almost exclusively do that.

And it shows, since they outright said that FFXIV healing (or at the very least, they described FFXIV healing) is not very interesting, and they actively try to avoid that design.


SE has designed themselves into a corner with healer design. They're not even heal checks, they're all binary Mitigation Checks.
Doesn't matter if you are a great healer, if your BLM greeded that Despair and missed the Addle, ya'll are gonna listen to Heroes again for the 1100th time. (Not personal experience I swear)

[Renathras]

[ EDIT: ] Oh, just curious, anyone check on the JP forums and see what Japanese players are saying about this? I can't Japanese, but I'm curious if their viewpoint is similar or not... [ :ENDEDIT ]

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I think these two quotes are kind of the takeaways of import here:

Just to make it clear, this is a very comp specific accomplishment made by exceptionally skilled players. No one is going to suddenly recruit five DPS for their 6.4 static. It simply highlights TOP, specifically, being poorly optimized and the fundamental flaw with giving so much healing to other roles while simultaneously refusing to increase the damage enough to make it necessary.

This pretty much sums it up.

On top of it all, there is no real reason for downtime between healing phases to be as high as it is. At least in savage and ultimate modes, forcing healers to spam their GCD heals should be nothing to be afraid of.
If developers are ok with having me spam Malefic over and over, they should also be ok with having me spam Benefic II non-stop. On paper I'm still just spaming one button, but at least that button does what my job is supposed to do.

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lol you don't raid at a high level, so you don't realize that your suggestions won't change anything; in fact you shot down the only encounter-related suggestion that might change something: a much larger HP pool

everything you mentioned has been done before, and if you go back into those old fights with current toolkits the same problem persists.

PROPOSE ALREADY.

My suggestions come from...raiders. Sebezy (the person I replied to) has made similar points in the past, as has much of the Healer forum. The RAIDERS in it. Their conclusion is that it couldn't be done with the game as a whole because it would make normal content too hard.

Seriously, you're being creepy stalker now. I guess you can keep doing it, but...

It doesn’t take one to do Ultimate or Savage to see things for what they are fundamentally if they’ve played the game long enough. I recently saw the TOP Clear and I can see why every Healer is mad. Yoshida said to Go do Ultimate? We did exactly that and then some. The moment TOP was completed without a Healer was when Healers were considered unnecessary.

Who needs Healers when you have everyone have self-sustain equivalent to the potency you’re pumping out in damage? Or for Tanks, having the self-sustain to survive to the next Tankbuster without any outside sources(PLD, WAR). It becomes a problem at high-end due to the fact that the skill requirement is raised from a mediocre bar to a high level to clear a check Week 1.

At the highest level(Ultimate) jobs should be considered at their peak performance due to the constraints required by the fight - especially on patch as they said. This means Pots, Food, the works.

Yoshida needs to rethink Healer design in general with the Battle Team; otherwise, Healers will die out or it’ll be “when they feel like it”.

Bingo and agreed.

Granted (as the quotes above) that this isn't just every Tom, Dick, and Harry that can do this. It's like how PotD has been cleared with AST, but that doesn't mean everyone can hop on AST and clear it. But as far as the proposed changes go, those are changes that hardcore players have been suggesting for months if not years to actually make the healing kits matter, and if there is a place in the game to push those, it would be Ultimate.

from another thread

Also true.

so asking for more engaging healer gameplay actually benefits the significant portion of the playerbase most because it'll make casual content much more fun on healer

Much more fun... to you.

Many people play Healer Jobs because they don't enjoy pressing DPS buttons. Like, they don't find that "fun". The word you're looking for is "tedious". Something people do because they have to, not because they want to. People who want to do DPS play DPS Jobs. People that want to do DPS with a splash of healing play DNC, SMN, or RDM. People that want to do moderate DPS but more support while still healing a lot play PLD or WAR.

Thats it NERF EVERY SINGLE TANK NOW SE.

Im so sick and tired of seeing how exploitative and OP tank mitigation is. It should not be this way. If you're gonna butcher healer's toolkits to be just flavors of heal rather than damage, then flippin commit to that design choice and make tanks not being able to self-sustain themselves so much. This is so ridiculous. I'm not even happy for that team, I would be if this were an offline game where it doesnt matter but in an online combat community where we have these 3 roles, one role should not outperform the other roles's specialization. Its dumb.

ALSO agreed. This doesn't prove Healers are broken, it proves Tanks and DPS Jobs are broken and have FAR too much healing and mitigation.

And it shows, since they outright said that FFXIV healing (or at the very least, they described FFXIV healing) is not very interesting, and they actively try to avoid that design.


SE has designed themselves into a corner with healer design. They're not even heal checks, they're all binary Mitigation Checks.
Doesn't matter if you are a great healer, if your BLM greeded that Despair and missed the Addle, ya'll are gonna listen to Heroes again for the 1100th time. (Not personal experience I swear)

Correct me if I'm wrong on the era, but this was going from Wrath to Cataclysm, right? I remember that being an issue in Wrath and they tried to course correct with Cataclysm (arguably successfully) and onward. Meaning it is entirely possible.

I don't think they can even do an overhaul, cause that would require them remaking all the fights and content from HW -> EW.

I've seen this argument a lot, but it doesn't make sense. They've done at least 2 major overhauls in healing during the game's history; one during HW (a shift towards more damage focus), another in SB (removal of Cleric), and another in ShB (shifting to the current paradigm of tons of big heals and super slim, even identical, DPS kits), and that's not counting the AST reworks, of which there have been at least two, and the removal of Nocturnal Stance in EW, and about to be another in 7.0.

They didn't redo all existing content either time.

WoW did a major focus shift from Wrath into Cataclysm because of the exact same problem with their healer design in Wrath (people were running 5 man Heroic dungeons with no Healers because Tanks were so OP), and they didn't redesign all prior content to match that paradigm, either.

Moreover, when FFXIV did the stat squish, they effectively retuned all existing content, and for unsync they added the Epic Echo.

It's not at all an unrealistic idea as it's already been done in various ways multiple times, both with and without changing prior encounters.

[Payotz]

Correct me if I'm wrong on the era, but this was going from Wrath to Cataclysm, right? I remember that being an issue in Wrath and they tried to course correct with Cataclysm (arguably successfully) and onward. Meaning it is entirely possible.

Oh this is a Dragonflight bluepost. They were addressing the fact that they had to bump player HP up by 30% because of how much damage they're adding into the content and how strong healers are. Or at the very least, that's what I remember the context being.

[Payotz]

I've seen this argument a lot, but it doesn't make sense. They've done at least 2 major overhauls in healing during the game's history; one during HW (a shift towards more damage focus), another in SB (removal of Cleric), and another in ShB (shifting to the current paradigm of tons of big heals and super slim, even identical, DPS kits), and that's not counting the AST reworks, of which there have been at least two, and the removal of Nocturnal Stance in EW, and about to be another in 7.0.

They didn't redo all existing content either time.

It's because they've all been designed into having stronger heals. The overhaul that is "needed" is to make heals a lot weaker. Like a WHOLE lot weaker.
Like Cure 3 being 150 potency and only affecting 4 people around you, weaker.

And since a lot of the design in FFXIV is big spiky damage and mitigation checks, then they're gonna have to rework every single raid wide and tankbuster to pass the new paradigm.
They can't be spiky anymore. They'd have to be staggered low damage hits over a small period of time. And that involves reworking a LOT of the fights in the game, including Dungeons and Story Trials.

The only reason why it worked in the overhauls is that they've consistently been making healers and tanks stronger.
Like the only healer and tank that was "weak" on launch was Nocturnal AST and DRK, and that was just because AST actually needed to manage mana, and DRK needed to manage cooldowns.

And if a tiny change like that would "break the game" according to the community, then what are the chances that a complete overhaul would come through?

WoW did a major focus shift from Wrath into Cataclysm because of the exact same problem with their healer design in Wrath (people were running 5 man Heroic dungeons with no Healers because Tanks were so OP), and they didn't redesign all prior content to match that paradigm, either.

Well Cata is essentially a rework of the Old World, so technically, they did redesign a large portion of the prior content to match that.
And there's one thing that FFXIV has that WoW doesn't that lets WoW do that. They don't do synced content.

FFXIV has a vested interest in keeping their old content clearable just because synced content is a major selling point of the game.
It would be bad optics to just have synced minimum ilvl, no echo to be unclearable because of the new design.
"Oh SE ruined healers now!!!!! It's bad!!!!" would fill every reddit thread, twitter thread, forum posts and pf post for like 2 expansions.

[Renathras]

...

Right, but that's why I pointed out the stat squish. The stat squish would make players WEAKER in the content vs stronger. Their answer to that was basically they made an algorithm that adjusted damage and health of enemies down to scale it as well. Moreover, they wouldn't have to redesign all content anyway, since ARR and HW content was already designed with that healing model.

They also wouldn't need to change things like Cure 3 - spam Cure 3 and you don't do it long because MP is a constraint. The issue is that oGCD heals need to be weaker so you use them to augment GCD healing, not replace it. And if you have more frequent damage, it's weaker. Say you have 5 hits of 15k damage 5 or so seconds apart. You need to heal during that since waiting until the end means some players would die. Using mitigation will only cover some of the hits. So you have to fall back on GCD heals. In the current game, you get a single hit of 60k damage, have to use a mitigation to survive, then take no damage for the next 45 seconds, so a single oGCD from both Healers will top the party off.

Smaller but more consistent damage actually forces the use of GCD heals, since even if heal potencies aren't changed AT ALL, you would need to space that healing out more, and you only have so many oGCDs.

The second step would be to weaken oGCD power, since people can still heal with GCD heals, but they're limited by MP. Doing this also works fine, since it means people clearing ShB/EW would be entirely able to do so using the GCD healing kits. As we ALL KNOW at this point, players can clear most content without touching a GCD heal, even Savages, and apparently, even Ultimates. So weakening oGCD heals but leaving GCD heals alone would mean that they couldn't just oGCD heal the pain away and actually have to use GCD heals. But since the GCD heals are still relatively powerful, it means the content can still be cleared with no retuning. Run an Expert Roulette or Extreme Trial right now and use no oGCD heals, only GCD heals. You can probably clear it just fine as long as you know when to back off damage so your MP can regenerate (and...maybe not even that). If that's possible, it means no old content would even need to be retuned.

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EDIT:

How do you have so many opinions without actually playing the game

How do I live in your head for such cheap rent?

Like, who even ARE you? I've never seen you post in replies to me until now, but you're hugging my butt across multiple threads, lol

Seriously, just drop to your knee and give me the ring already. It's clear at this point you can't stop thinking about me. XD

[For the record, I do Extremes all the time - which is "end game content/playing the game", and occasionally Savage if I feel like PFing for it. I have a variable enough schedule I don't have a Static, and I don't want to try clearing P3S or P7S/P8S/TOP without a Static, it's that simple.

So I do "play the game" and am very familiar with mechanics and gameplay. NEeeeeext!

Also: It better be a big fat rock on this ring you're giving me to justify all the stalking~! <3]

[GaiusDrakon]

So I do "play the game" and am very familiar with mechanics and gameplay.

lmao its just funny you run around complaining that veteran healers disagree with you then type out all this nonsense that shows you don't actually understand healing

[Renathras]

lmao its just funny you run around complaining that veteran healers disagree with you then type out all this nonsense that shows you don't actually understand healing

lmao it's funny that I live in your head so rent free you have to reply to every post I make with a lie. <3

P.S. Still waiting on you to propose, stalker.

[Shinkuno]

FFXIV has a vested interest in keeping their old content clearable just because synced content is a major selling point of the game.
It would be bad optics to just have synced minimum ilvl, no echo to be unclearable because of the new design.
"Oh SE ruined healers now!!!!! It's bad!!!!" would fill every reddit thread, twitter thread, forum posts and pf post for like 2 expansions.

This argument goes well out the window when you realized doing content synced is not even an inch comparable to how it was when it was current.
Missing skills + higher potency and you just cruise through them pressing 5 buttons.

[Payotz]

Right, but that's why I pointed out the stat squish. The stat squish would make players WEAKER in the content vs stronger. Their answer to that was basically they made an algorithm that adjusted damage and health of enemies down to scale it as well. Moreover, they wouldn't have to redesign all content anyway, since ARR and HW content was already designed with that healing model.

That.. wouldn't really do anything no?
Like let's say you have the following numbers:

50k hp
10k mana
50k damage coming in (45k with a 10% mitigation)

and then you do a stat squish and you remove a 0 at the end, you'd have.

5k hp
1k mana
5k damage coming in (4.5k with 10% mit)

it's still spiky damage. It's not really all about the numbers. It's about the design philosophy.
It doesn't really matter if it's 50k hp or 5k hp, it's still the fact that it's still a binary mitigation check regardless.

If the players are weaker, and at the same time, the content gets weaker, then it doesn't really change anything.

They also wouldn't need to change things like Cure 3 - spam Cure 3 and you don't do it long because MP is a constraint. The issue is that oGCD heals need to be weaker so you use them to augment GCD healing, not replace it. And if you have more frequent damage, it's weaker. Say you have 5 hits of 15k damage 5 or so seconds apart.

Yeah sure, but that would mean that every spiky damage needs to be turned from a big blast of 75,000 damage in a single raidwide, to 5 hits of 15k damage over 5 seconds. That's exactly my point. You'd have to change every spiky damage raidwide to smaller hits of smaller damage in every piece of content in the game, and that's simply not feasible logistics wise.

We had to sacrifice a lot of content in Shadowbringers just so they can cut down ARR quests and rework Cape Westwind, Praetorium and Castrum. A whole rework for even just a single expansion like that is not gonna be feasible.

This argument goes well out the window when you realized doing content synced is not even an inch comparable to how it was when it was current.
Missing skills + higher potency and you just cruise through them pressing 5 buttons.

Oh my argument isn't that the content got easier. My argument is that there's a chance that if they didn't rework the content at all, and just let the content have the same tuning, and just nerf the potency of every healing GCD and OGCD in the game, and mitigation effectiveness of every ability in the game down by 90%, then there's a chance that content will be unclearable just because the damage gets too much.

Like Brute Justice soft enrage in TEA would be something I'd be extremely worried about if it does happen.

[GaiusDrakon]

snip

How do you have so many opinions without actually playing the game