Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[grinkdaboy]

my favorite part about abyssos was that healers complained about having nothing to do and then screeched "AAAAIIIIEEEEE NO NOT LIKE THIS" when they had to do p5s, p7s, and p8s

[ty_taurus]

my favorite part about abyssos was that healers complained about having nothing to do and then screeched "AAAAIIIIEEEEE NO NOT LIKE THIS" when they had to do p5s, p7s, and p8s

Thing is, it's most likely that the players who have been complaining about healers not having anything to do, and the people who couldn't handle P5S-P8S healing requirements were not the same people.

[ForteNightshade]

Thing is, it's most likely that the players who have been complaining about healers not having anything to do, and the people who couldn't handle P5S-P8S healing requirements were not the same people.

Not to mention just the initial shock of higher outgoing damage and everyone being in crafted gear. I think the latter is often overlooked. People coming from Asphodelos may have only raided that tier, and with a padded ilvl if they got into it later on.

As someone who healed all but P8 this tier. Carbuncle got to a point where I wasn't even using Benediction more than once because I never actually needed to. Hegemone and Agdistis both had tanks solo-ing their shared busters.

[Sebazy]

my favorite part about abyssos was that healers complained about having nothing to do and then screeched "AAAAIIIIEEEEE NO NOT LIKE THIS" when they had to do p5s, p7s, and p8s

Have you considered that they might not be the same crowd?

We've had big healer checks before, Godka was great to heal and you didn't see much whining about it back then at least not to my memory.

So what's changed? Well if I look at my own FC (Entropy, multiple world firsts in Ultimate and Savage) and my group which is a bit of a retirement home within the FC, it's pretty clear at least within my circle. All the healers burnt out over the course of Shadowbringers. I was lucky to play alongside some of the best healers in Europe and now they are pretty much all gone.

I'd wonder how many of those healers struggling with this tier were around for Coil/Alex/Omega?

With no sarcasm or schadenfreude at all, I genuinely hope they make the healing checks in the next Ultimate so hard that people are taking 3 Healers during prog just to get to the next phases. Make the DPS checks lenient but the Healing required insane.

The problem is that they arguably couldn't do this if they tried. Or rather they could, but they'd need to really rewrite the rulebook on a lot of things.

Our kits are just too strong relative to our overall HP pool/survivability and the accepted pace of typical Savage/Ultimate mechanics which are generally more puzzles than outright damage/hps tests these days.

The only way I can see it working is if they throw a huge HP buff on us and turn it into an attrition fight whilst also throwing in some retro Allagan Rot style mechanic to keep the group sufficiently spread out requiring triage style whackamole single target heals rather than just deleting the bad with Asylum/Soil. Personally, I'd actually quite like that, but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for SE to be bold enough to actually try it as things stand.

Also you do realise that TOP is already the content where people aren't able to handle it and quit, groups break up, etc etc right?

[Renathras]

Also you do realise that TOP is already the content where people aren't able to handle it and quit, groups break up, etc etc right?

Exactly. That's my point.

Doing this with normal content or Extremes or even Savages, you have a far wider audience doing that content so the consequences of such a change would be much father reaching.

But Ultimates are done almost exclusively by people that want that and that frequently deal with breaking up groups and burnout people and having to spend days or weeks finding replacements and so on. It's something that they want or, at least, are used to dealing with and expect as part of the experience.

So doing this with Ultimates wouldn't be a problem - as I said, no sarcasm or schadenfreude. If there was content in the game given this treatment, Ultimate would be it. And frankly, considering the "Go play Ultimate" statement and people's general perception of Ultimates, I'm somewhat shocked it isn't and hasn't already been the case.

And you wouldn't need the HP buff and stuff. You'd just need to do what we've discussed before (that you said we couldn't do game-wide because it would make it too hard for casual healers; a group we aren't concerned about in Ultimates):

1) Untelegraphed tankbusters and autos that hit hard and can crit.

2) Consistent, rapid, unavoidable damage forcing Healers to burn through their CDs and fall back on GCD heals since they don't have enough oGCDs to go around.

3) More bleed effects that can't be solved with short term mitigation or one time oGCD mass heals.

4) More extended spread mechanics and such that don't allow spamming of AOE heals.

5) More random points of damage that can happen in various orders within a window and that don't the boss into an extended telegraph. This can easily be done by having untargetable adds around the outside of the arena cast various abilities and semi-randomized timers and overlap points so the boss(es) can continue whacking away at the Tank(s).

All the tools to do this are in the game and used to be common in early raids in ARR and HW. You're fond of telling me they can't do that across the whole game, but we're not talking the whole game here, JUST Ultimates. The one place where they CAN do it and get away with it.

[GaiusDrakon]

Exactly. That's my point.

Doing this with normal content or Extremes or even Savages, you have a far wider audience doing that content so the consequences of such a change would be much father reaching.

But Ultimates are done almost exclusively by people that want that and that frequently deal with breaking up groups and burnout people and having to spend days or weeks finding replacements and so on. It's something that they want or, at least, are used to dealing with and expect as part of the experience.

So doing this with Ultimates wouldn't be a problem - as I said, no sarcasm or schadenfreude. If there was content in the game given this treatment, Ultimate would be it. And frankly, considering the "Go play Ultimate" statement and people's general perception of Ultimates, I'm somewhat shocked it isn't and hasn't already been the case.

And you wouldn't need the HP buff and stuff. You'd just need to do what we've discussed before (that you said we couldn't do game-wide because it would make it too hard for casual healers; a group we aren't concerned about in Ultimates):

1) Untelegraphed tankbusters and autos that hit hard and can crit.

2) Consistent, rapid, unavoidable damage forcing Healers to burn through their CDs and fall back on GCD heals since they don't have enough oGCDs to go around.

3) More bleed effects that can't be solved with short term mitigation or one time oGCD mass heals.

4) More extended spread mechanics and such that don't allow spamming of AOE heals.

5) More random points of damage that can happen in various orders within a window and that don't the boss into an extended telegraph. This can easily be done by having untargetable adds around the outside of the arena cast various abilities and semi-randomized timers and overlap points so the boss(es) can continue whacking away at the Tank(s).

All the tools to do this are in the game and used to be common in early raids in ARR and HW. You're fond of telling me they can't do that across the whole game, but we're not talking the whole game here, JUST Ultimates. The one place where they CAN do it and get away with it.

Bruh you didn't even clear any tier what are you doing talking about Ultimates

Have you considered that they might not be the same crowd?

We've had big healer checks before, Godka was great to heal and you didn't see much whining about it back then at least not to my memory.

So what's changed? Well if I look at my own FC (Entropy, multiple world firsts in Ultimate and Savage) and my group which is a bit of a retirement home within the FC, it's pretty clear at least within my circle. All the healers burnt out over the course of Shadowbringers. I was lucky to play alongside some of the best healers in Europe and now they are pretty much all gone.

I'd wonder how many of those healers struggling with this tier were around for Coil/Alex/Omega?



The problem is that they arguably couldn't do this if they tried. Or rather they could, but they'd need to really rewrite the rulebook on a lot of things.

Our kits are just too strong relative to our overall HP pool/survivability and the accepted pace of typical Savage/Ultimate mechanics which are generally more puzzles than outright damage/hps tests these days.

The only way I can see it working is if they throw a huge HP buff on us and turn it into an attrition fight whilst also throwing in some retro Allagan Rot style mechanic to keep the group sufficiently spread out requiring triage style whackamole single target heals rather than just deleting the bad with Asylum/Soil. Personally, I'd actually quite like that, but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for SE to be bold enough to actually try it as things stand.

Also you do realise that TOP is already the content where people aren't able to handle it and quit, groups break up, etc etc right?

They can unironically gut half the healing actions and people will still be able to solo heal the Ultimates. SE failed to make healing actions interesting and differentiated. They should honestly just give up, cut half the healing actions and do something else. A one-hotbar sage job with only 4 healing actions and the same DPS buttons will unironically be more engaging than the current bloated mess.

[Renathras]

Bruh you didn't even clear any tier what are you doing talking about Ultimates

Lol, just propose to me already, stalker.

I understand the problem overall, and I've talked to these fine folks that do it and what they want. Ultimates are content that is pretty narrowly done by people like them and doesn't affect anyone else. Moreover, ever wonder why I don't do (many) Savages? Take a WILD guess.

Actually, no, don't. You'll be wrong.

Regardless, you're attacking me ON THIS? You're attacking me on saying I hope they make the healing checks and healing challenge more difficult in Ultimates? I know you hate me and my perspectives in general, but this is literally what people like you have been asking for. You're attacking me for suggesting they do the thing they want. Do you realize how absurd and stalkerish contrarian that is?

Anyway, I won't reply further on it, you're just a clown at this point.

[GaiusDrakon]

Lol, just propose to me already, stalker.

I understand the problem overall, and I've talked to these fine folks that do it and what they want. Ultimates are content that is pretty narrowly done by people like them and doesn't affect anyone else. Moreover, ever wonder why I don't do (many) Savages? Take a WILD guess.

Actually, no, don't. You'll be wrong.

Regardless, you're attacking me ON THIS? You're attacking me on saying I hope they make the healing checks and healing challenge more difficult in Ultimates? I know you hate me and my perspectives in general, but this is literally what people like you have been asking for. You're attacking me for suggesting they do the thing they want. Do you realize how absurd and stalkerish contrarian that is?

Anyway, I won't reply further on it, you're just a clown at this point.

lol you don't raid at a high level, so you don't realize that your suggestions won't change anything; in fact you shot down the only encounter-related suggestion that might change something: a much larger HP pool

everything you mentioned has been done before, and if you go back into those old fights with current toolkits the same problem persists.

[HyperiusUltima]

Bruh you didn't even clear any tier what are you doing talking about Ultimates

It doesn’t take one to do Ultimate or Savage to see things for what they are fundamentally if they’ve played the game long enough. I recently saw the TOP Clear and I can see why every Healer is mad. Yoshida said to Go do Ultimate? We did exactly that and then some. The moment TOP was completed without a Healer was when Healers were considered unnecessary.

Who needs Healers when you have everyone have self-sustain equivalent to the potency you’re pumping out in damage? Or for Tanks, having the self-sustain to survive to the next Tankbuster without any outside sources(PLD, WAR). It becomes a problem at high-end due to the fact that the skill requirement is raised from a mediocre bar to a high level to clear a check Week 1.

At the highest level(Ultimate) jobs should be considered at their peak performance due to the constraints required by the fight - especially on patch as they said. This means Pots, Food, the works.

Yoshida needs to rethink Healer design in general with the Battle Team; otherwise, Healers will die out or it’ll be “when they feel like it”.

[MisterNublet]

my favorite part about abyssos was that healers complained about having nothing to do and then screeched "AAAAIIIIEEEEE NO NOT LIKE THIS" when they had to do p5s, p7s, and p8s

Hahaha, No. This savage tier wasn't even a heal check, it was a MIT check to see if dps even had feint/addle slotted or if the tanks knew how to press more than their invuls during tankbusters.