I loved this Live Letter

[Ath192]

Thank you for pointing this out. Its so silly for people to immediately paint somebody who doesnt necessarily agree with you as an SE simp, or a white knight or being toxic positive when we all have gripes and criticisms in many other facets of this game.

People like this arent worth the time.

Okay but the question is why don’t they spend their time on the forums providing their feedback instead of chastising people they deem too negative?

Because by all accounts that doesn’t make sense and the mud slinging doesn’t really start until someone posts a criticism and a “white knight” goes on to invalidate someone else criticism. And thus the cycle begins.

TBH a lot of people who claim to be “positive” really enjoy attacking and destroying others arguments on here for the hell of it. They also enjoy pointing out any issue they can find in others instead of trying to understand the main point the critical poster is getting at. That doesn’t seem very positive at all does it? It’s just the same toxicity with a different spin.

[Saraide]

Okay but the question is why don’t they spend their time on the forums providing their feedback instead of chastising people they deem too negative?

Because by all accounts that doesn’t make sense and the mud slinging doesn’t really start until someone posts a criticism and a “white knight” goes on to invalidate someone else criticism. And thus the cycle begins.

TBH a lot of people who claim to be “positive” really enjoy attacking and destroying others arguments on here for the hell of it. They also enjoy pointing out any issue they can find in others instead of trying to understand the main point the critical poster is getting at. That doesn’t seem very positive at all does it? It’s just the same toxicity with a different spin.

(Bolded by me)

100% correct.

[Hurlstone]

Okay but the question is why don’t they spend their time on the forums providing their feedback instead of chastising people they deem too negative?

Because by all accounts that doesn’t make sense and the mud slinging doesn’t really start until someone posts a criticism and a “white knight” goes on to invalidate someone else criticism. And thus the cycle begins.

TBH a lot of people who claim to be “positive” really enjoy attacking and destroying others arguments on here for the hell of it. They also enjoy pointing out any issue they can find in others instead of trying to understand the main point the critical poster is getting at. That doesn’t seem very positive at all does it? It’s just the same toxicity with a different spin.

Depends what you mean by feedback. Speaking positively about the game is a type of feedback, and it would be depressing if all we had to do is attack the game. Besides, I think many so-called 'white knights' do still accept the games flaws. Its just not everyone thinks such flaws negate the games enjoyability. Some of the negative posts here make it sound like any attempt to disagree or question with said criticism is ‘boot licking’ and akin to saying the game is perfect, without there being any middle ground. Plus, there are a number of folk here who are not acting in good faith. Many of the negative threads are pure troll bait, or our full of bias that they do require actual debate rather then just ‘I agree or disagree.’

Both sides certainly have a toxic element to them sure, but personally speaking I find the scales do tip more in one direction then the other, even if you and others will likely dissagree.

[Renathras]

Okay but the question is why don’t they spend their time on the forums providing their feedback instead of chastising people they deem too negative?

1) They do. Many of us offer criticism. I have a thread here about how Extreme fights (and the discussion went into fights more generally) have changed over time and how I think Extremes are closer to Savage now and the game needs a difficulty between Normal and "harder than Normal". That's a criticism.

2) People are ALLOWED to post positive things. And when the same negative people going into all the positive threads to pick fights and berate people for being positive come into their threads, they are well within reason to rebuff those people.

3) The negative people are coming into the positive threads picking fights. They aren't innocent victims and people aren't going out of their way to attack them. Even with all the negative people taking issue with OP's first line, his line wasn't attacking the negative people, it was saying "there's a lot of negativity here, but here is some positivity". That wasn't picking a fight or "chastising" anyone. The perma-negative people here took it as a personal attack because someone dared not agree with them that they should be down on the game, and raided this thread to try and prevent any positivity from taking hold. This happens in seemingly EVERY positive thread here, indicating it's not "toxic positivity and white knights" we have here, it's "toxic negativity and black knights".

4) The mud slinging almost always starts when someone posts something positive - either in their own thread (like this one) or as a comment in another thread - and the "black knights" go on to invalidate the positivity. And thus the cycle begins. It's almost always the black knights starting this fighting - which they immediately blame on the white knights that don't exist. Reading through a lot of threads here in General lately, I don't see many or even any "blind positive white knights". People saying the game isn't horribad right now are generally doing so by offering actual reasons.

5) TBH a lot of people who claim to be offering "constructive criticism" really enjoy attacking and destroying others arguments on here for the hell of it. They also enjoy pointing out any issue they can find in others instead of trying to understand the main point the positive poster is getting at. That seems extra toxic doesn't it? It’s the worse toxicity of the two by far.

Depends what you mean by feedback. Speaking positively about the game is a type of feedback, and it would be depressing if all we had to do is attack the game. Besides, I think many so-called 'white knights' do still accept the games flaws. Its just not everyone thinks such flaws negate the games enjoyability. Some of the negative posts here make it sound like any attempt to disagree or question with said criticism is ‘boot licking’ and akin to saying the game is perfect, without there being any middle ground. Plus, there are a number of folk here who are not acting in good faith. Many of the negative threads are pure troll bait, or our full of bias that they do require actual debate rather then just ‘I agree or disagree.’

Both sides certainly have a toxic element to them sure, but personally speaking I find the scales do tip more in one direction then the other, even if you and others will likely dissagree.

100% correct.

I don't think I've seen a white knight in here yet. The people offering positivity often have some critiques of the game, and even those that don't aren't "reactively overpositive", they're offering reasons behind why they think what they think. Rationally disagreeing with a person who is negative does not make one toxic.

It seems that the toxic negative black knights also severely overestimate how constructive and non-combative they are as a whole. Some individuals are exceptions, but on the whole, the black knight brigade is a problem here as it attacks any positive feedback. And positive feedback IS feedback.

[subatomic]

Okay but the question is why don’t they spend their time on the forums providing their feedback instead of chastising people they deem too negative?

Because by all accounts that doesn’t make sense and the mud slinging doesn’t really start until someone posts a criticism and a “white knight” goes on to invalidate someone else criticism. And thus the cycle begins.

TBH a lot of people who claim to be “positive” really enjoy attacking and destroying others arguments on here for the hell of it. They also enjoy pointing out any issue they can find in others instead of trying to understand the main point the critical poster is getting at. That doesn’t seem very positive at all does it? It’s just the same toxicity with a different spin.

So you can complain about the game and pick apart every issue you find in the game but no one can do the same to you?

[WaxSw]

So you can complain about the game and pick apart every issue you find in the game but no one can do the same to you?

...Yes? Thats the whole point of the forums? One thing is a game and another different is a person? The difference is pretty basic. One can try to argument with another player about the complains one may have, but there is actually a very big difference between doing that and calling others haters and telling them to "just unsuscribe".

[Atelier-Bagur]

Okay but the question is why don’t they spend their time on the forums providing their feedback instead of chastising people they deem too negative?

Because by all accounts that doesn’t make sense and the mud slinging doesn’t really start until someone posts a criticism and a “white knight” goes on to invalidate someone else criticism. And thus the cycle begins.

TBH a lot of people who claim to be “positive” really enjoy attacking and destroying others arguments on here for the hell of it. They also enjoy pointing out any issue they can find in others instead of trying to understand the main point the critical poster is getting at. That doesn’t seem very positive at all does it? It’s just the same toxicity with a different spin.

goes to show how little you actually pay attention to anyone on the forums except when the obvious loud people make their points. Ive stated numerous times on replies and other posts about how:

I dislike the current housing system, dislike the leveling experience, dislike the combat system, dislike the homogenous jobs, dislike the butchering of the holy trinity (tanks, healers, dps), dislike the character progression for being meaningless, dislike the dungeon and raid design, dislike the lack of meaningful rewards in Variant/Criterion dungeons, dislike parts of the MSQ, dislike the community, dislike the current EW relic steps being the exact same etc

Ive stated all of these things in one way or another but ofcourse because these statements have been mostly worded softly (for the most part, I'an no saint either) and or werent made into dramatic threads or abnoxious loud posts ala aveyond or hunkygladiator, they usually go unnoticed.

[subatomic]

...Yes? Thats the whole point of the forums? One thing is a game and another different is a person? The difference is pretty basic. One can try to argument with another player about the complains one may have, but there is actually a very big difference between doing that and calling others haters and telling them to "just unsuscribe".

People are behind the games as well... when you complain and pick apart everything someone does you're attacking the developers too. Learn how to make constructive feedback <3

[Stormpeaks]

People are behind the games as well... when you complain and pick apart everything someone does you're attacking the developers too. Learn how to make constructive feedback <3

You can kiss their boots all you want, doesnt mean everyone has to

Also you should prob stop writing <3's in every single post like a 12 year old

[aveyond-dreams]

People are behind the games as well... when you complain and pick apart everything someone does you're attacking the developers too. Learn how to make constructive feedback <3

Not really. My focus at least is usually on the product rather than the individual because if they have shown they can produce excellent work. However I don't think that's what is going on in Endwalker. Corners have obviously been cut in terms of content and the story right now is going nowhere. To say nothing of how thematically tone deaf base Endwalker was when compared to Shadowbringers, the perspective from which the MSQ was being written shifted from a place that was relatable to one that seemed to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the topics it attempted to tackle.