I loved this Live Letter

[Ath192]

Thank you for pointing this out. Its so silly for people to immediately paint somebody who doesnt necessarily agree with you as an SE simp, or a white knight or being toxic positive when we all have gripes and criticisms in many other facets of this game.

People like this arent worth the time.

Okay but the question is why don’t they spend their time on the forums providing their feedback instead of chastising people they deem too negative?

Because by all accounts that doesn’t make sense and the mud slinging doesn’t really start until someone posts a criticism and a “white knight” goes on to invalidate someone else criticism. And thus the cycle begins.

TBH a lot of people who claim to be “positive” really enjoy attacking and destroying others arguments on here for the hell of it. They also enjoy pointing out any issue they can find in others instead of trying to understand the main point the critical poster is getting at. That doesn’t seem very positive at all does it? It’s just the same toxicity with a different spin.

[Saraide]

Okay but the question is why don’t they spend their time on the forums providing their feedback instead of chastising people they deem too negative?

Because by all accounts that doesn’t make sense and the mud slinging doesn’t really start until someone posts a criticism and a “white knight” goes on to invalidate someone else criticism. And thus the cycle begins.

TBH a lot of people who claim to be “positive” really enjoy attacking and destroying others arguments on here for the hell of it. They also enjoy pointing out any issue they can find in others instead of trying to understand the main point the critical poster is getting at. That doesn’t seem very positive at all does it? It’s just the same toxicity with a different spin.

(Bolded by me)

100% correct.

[Hurlstone]

Okay but the question is why don’t they spend their time on the forums providing their feedback instead of chastising people they deem too negative?

Because by all accounts that doesn’t make sense and the mud slinging doesn’t really start until someone posts a criticism and a “white knight” goes on to invalidate someone else criticism. And thus the cycle begins.

TBH a lot of people who claim to be “positive” really enjoy attacking and destroying others arguments on here for the hell of it. They also enjoy pointing out any issue they can find in others instead of trying to understand the main point the critical poster is getting at. That doesn’t seem very positive at all does it? It’s just the same toxicity with a different spin.

Depends what you mean by feedback. Speaking positively about the game is a type of feedback, and it would be depressing if all we had to do is attack the game. Besides, I think many so-called 'white knights' do still accept the games flaws. Its just not everyone thinks such flaws negate the games enjoyability. Some of the negative posts here make it sound like any attempt to disagree or question with said criticism is ‘boot licking’ and akin to saying the game is perfect, without there being any middle ground. Plus, there are a number of folk here who are not acting in good faith. Many of the negative threads are pure troll bait, or our full of bias that they do require actual debate rather then just ‘I agree or disagree.’

Both sides certainly have a toxic element to them sure, but personally speaking I find the scales do tip more in one direction then the other, even if you and others will likely dissagree.

[Renathras]

Okay but the question is why don’t they spend their time on the forums providing their feedback instead of chastising people they deem too negative?

1) They do. Many of us offer criticism. I have a thread here about how Extreme fights (and the discussion went into fights more generally) have changed over time and how I think Extremes are closer to Savage now and the game needs a difficulty between Normal and "harder than Normal". That's a criticism.

2) People are ALLOWED to post positive things. And when the same negative people going into all the positive threads to pick fights and berate people for being positive come into their threads, they are well within reason to rebuff those people.

3) The negative people are coming into the positive threads picking fights. They aren't innocent victims and people aren't going out of their way to attack them. Even with all the negative people taking issue with OP's first line, his line wasn't attacking the negative people, it was saying "there's a lot of negativity here, but here is some positivity". That wasn't picking a fight or "chastising" anyone. The perma-negative people here took it as a personal attack because someone dared not agree with them that they should be down on the game, and raided this thread to try and prevent any positivity from taking hold. This happens in seemingly EVERY positive thread here, indicating it's not "toxic positivity and white knights" we have here, it's "toxic negativity and black knights".

4) The mud slinging almost always starts when someone posts something positive - either in their own thread (like this one) or as a comment in another thread - and the "black knights" go on to invalidate the positivity. And thus the cycle begins. It's almost always the black knights starting this fighting - which they immediately blame on the white knights that don't exist. Reading through a lot of threads here in General lately, I don't see many or even any "blind positive white knights". People saying the game isn't horribad right now are generally doing so by offering actual reasons.

5) TBH a lot of people who claim to be offering "constructive criticism" really enjoy attacking and destroying others arguments on here for the hell of it. They also enjoy pointing out any issue they can find in others instead of trying to understand the main point the positive poster is getting at. That seems extra toxic doesn't it? It’s the worse toxicity of the two by far.

Depends what you mean by feedback. Speaking positively about the game is a type of feedback, and it would be depressing if all we had to do is attack the game. Besides, I think many so-called 'white knights' do still accept the games flaws. Its just not everyone thinks such flaws negate the games enjoyability. Some of the negative posts here make it sound like any attempt to disagree or question with said criticism is ‘boot licking’ and akin to saying the game is perfect, without there being any middle ground. Plus, there are a number of folk here who are not acting in good faith. Many of the negative threads are pure troll bait, or our full of bias that they do require actual debate rather then just ‘I agree or disagree.’

Both sides certainly have a toxic element to them sure, but personally speaking I find the scales do tip more in one direction then the other, even if you and others will likely dissagree.

100% correct.

I don't think I've seen a white knight in here yet. The people offering positivity often have some critiques of the game, and even those that don't aren't "reactively overpositive", they're offering reasons behind why they think what they think. Rationally disagreeing with a person who is negative does not make one toxic.

It seems that the toxic negative black knights also severely overestimate how constructive and non-combative they are as a whole. Some individuals are exceptions, but on the whole, the black knight brigade is a problem here as it attacks any positive feedback. And positive feedback IS feedback.

[subatomic]

Okay but the question is why don’t they spend their time on the forums providing their feedback instead of chastising people they deem too negative?

Because by all accounts that doesn’t make sense and the mud slinging doesn’t really start until someone posts a criticism and a “white knight” goes on to invalidate someone else criticism. And thus the cycle begins.

TBH a lot of people who claim to be “positive” really enjoy attacking and destroying others arguments on here for the hell of it. They also enjoy pointing out any issue they can find in others instead of trying to understand the main point the critical poster is getting at. That doesn’t seem very positive at all does it? It’s just the same toxicity with a different spin.

So you can complain about the game and pick apart every issue you find in the game but no one can do the same to you?

[WaxSw]

So you can complain about the game and pick apart every issue you find in the game but no one can do the same to you?

...Yes? Thats the whole point of the forums? One thing is a game and another different is a person? The difference is pretty basic. One can try to argument with another player about the complains one may have, but there is actually a very big difference between doing that and calling others haters and telling them to "just unsuscribe".

[subatomic]

...Yes? Thats the whole point of the forums? One thing is a game and another different is a person? The difference is pretty basic. One can try to argument with another player about the complains one may have, but there is actually a very big difference between doing that and calling others haters and telling them to "just unsuscribe".

People are behind the games as well... when you complain and pick apart everything someone does you're attacking the developers too. Learn how to make constructive feedback <3

[Atelier-Bagur]

Okay but the question is why don’t they spend their time on the forums providing their feedback instead of chastising people they deem too negative?

Because by all accounts that doesn’t make sense and the mud slinging doesn’t really start until someone posts a criticism and a “white knight” goes on to invalidate someone else criticism. And thus the cycle begins.

TBH a lot of people who claim to be “positive” really enjoy attacking and destroying others arguments on here for the hell of it. They also enjoy pointing out any issue they can find in others instead of trying to understand the main point the critical poster is getting at. That doesn’t seem very positive at all does it? It’s just the same toxicity with a different spin.

goes to show how little you actually pay attention to anyone on the forums except when the obvious loud people make their points. Ive stated numerous times on replies and other posts about how:

I dislike the current housing system, dislike the leveling experience, dislike the combat system, dislike the homogenous jobs, dislike the butchering of the holy trinity (tanks, healers, dps), dislike the character progression for being meaningless, dislike the dungeon and raid design, dislike the lack of meaningful rewards in Variant/Criterion dungeons, dislike parts of the MSQ, dislike the community, dislike the current EW relic steps being the exact same etc

Ive stated all of these things in one way or another but ofcourse because these statements have been mostly worded softly (for the most part, I'an no saint either) and or werent made into dramatic threads or abnoxious loud posts ala aveyond or hunkygladiator, they usually go unnoticed.

[Renathras]

Start looking.

(Here's a hint, you can start your search with the OP)

Sorry, but no. As I said before, OP isn't being a white knight, they're expressing an opinion. So you know, people are allowed to like this game AND post that they like this game on this game's official forum. Doing so does not make one a white knight. Saying they're doing so in the face of negativity ALSO does not make one a white knight.

Why are you triggered by the fact that somebody likes the upcoming patch and enjoys the game? How is it toxic positivity if we enjoy what we pay for?

This.

UNFETTERED SKILL ISSUE

Regardless of your...assessment...the point is that I (and others accused of being white knights or toxic positive) often DO critique the game. Unlike the negative Nancies, the positive people are open with their criticisms, they just also express positively.

I can already feel the monkey's paw curling.

It does feel that way, doesn't it?

...Yes? Thats the whole point of the forums? One thing is a game and another different is a person? The difference is pretty basic. One can try to argument with another player about the complains one may have, but there is actually a very big difference between doing that and calling others haters and telling them to "just unsuscribe".

And yet, many of the negative posters are doing just that - picking appart people/attacking people.

When you say someone is "toxic", "white knight" (used as an insult - and it is being used that way, let's not be coy), or demonstrating "toxic positivity" - those are not constructive criticisms on the game, they are arguing with, or rather attacking, another person. Calling a person toxic positive isn't less bad than calling someone a hater.

It was you who said the positive people didn't like the game as much and were blind, was it not? How was that "constructive criticism of the game", exactly?

goes to show how little you actually pay attention to anyone on the forums except when the obvious loud people make their points. Ive stated numerous times on replies and other posts about how:

I dislike the current housing system, dislike the leveling experience, dislike the combat system, dislike the homogenous jobs, dislike the butchering of the holy trinity (tanks, healers, dps), dislike the character progression for being meaningless, dislike the dungeon and raid design, dislike the lack of meaningful rewards in Variant/Criterion dungeons, dislike parts of the MSQ, dislike the community, dislike the current EW relic steps being the exact same etc

Ive stated all of these things in one way or another but ofcourse because these statements have been mostly worded softly (for the most part, I'an no saint either) and or werent made into dramatic threads or abnoxious loud posts ala aveyond or hunkygladiator, they usually go unnoticed.

This.

Negative people insisting folks they are opposed to aren't negative enough are either ignoring the actual critiques we make - which ARE often examples of constructive criticism unlike the brigading positive posts to bring down the mood or attack OPs - and seem to have this "all or nothing" position that unless you're constantly negative on the game and anyone who likes it, you're "toxic positive". It's the most insane metric I've ever seen on a video game forum, and I've been on quite a few.

.

The long and short of it, though, is:

1) Positive feedback is ALSO feedback and is allowed and valid.

2) People are allowed to like a thing/game.

3) People not agreeing with you doesn't make them toxic or white knights.

4) Calling people toxic or white knights is...kinda toxic.

5) Feedback offered in neutral tone, without attacking people, that is precise and actionable, and that doesn't stoop to hyperbolic or hysterics is far more likely to be acted on than that which is...not.

6) Even the best feedback may be listened to but not acted on if the overall decision based on metrics that the person giving the feedback may not have access to suggests that it would be better for the game not to act on it, or act in a way different from the one giving said feedback wants. And that's perfectly okay, it's not being "ignored" and/or "silenced".

7) Despite all this, we're all Human, and I hope you're all having a lovely weekend.

[WaxSw]

And yet, many of the negative posters are doing just that - picking appart people/attacking people.

When you say someone is "toxic", "white knight" (used as an insult - and it is being used that way, let's not be coy), or demonstrating "toxic positivity" - those are not constructive criticisms on the game, they are arguing with, or rather attacking, another person. Calling a person toxic positive isn't less bad than calling someone a hater.

While this happens is more often than not because those positive people just throw the classic "just unsub" or simply try to silence the criticism in any stupid way (just look how this thread exists for the very same reason). I dont doubt there are cases like that but usually the ones behaving in such an emotional way tend to be the toxic positive ones and the negative ones usually react to that toxicity.

It was you who said the positive people didn't like the game as much and were blind, was it not? How was that "constructive criticism of the game", exactly?

Quoting myself "You (and to an extent all of those who think that any criticism that the game gets is hate) should realize that many of those "haters" are people who really love this game, probably way more than those who blindly praise the game, and want it to be the best it can be."

I said blindly praise, not blind, I said "probably more" when it comes to loving the games and I stand by my words, one must really like something to be able to enjoy it, see its flaws and go out their way to try to fix them. I didn't call anyone blind nor I talked in absolutes when it came to loving the game so, please, don't try to maliciously twist my words

"How was that "constructive criticism of the game"?

It wasn't but just because this entire thread focus is not the feedback towards the game. This thread is just a try to silence that criticism and that's why I called it out, because its unhealthy.

If you want to shut any argument I have with that question though, I could ask you the same question "How are your arguments constructive criticism of the game"?