Dps jobs share at least 90% of their abilities

[Frodnoxx]

This isn't nit picking though, this is looking at the broader picture. Seeing the forest for the trees as the saying goes.

However, I am intrigued. I am ignorant as to how other tab target MMOs have core rotational differences between jobs where they do not feel the same to play. If you (or someone else) doesn't mind providing examples, or point me to some good examples as a starting point, I would welcome the extra knowledge.

I can only give examples from WoW as it is the only other MMO I've played to any real extent. I will give a basic explanation of the rotations' foundations, but they end up getting more and more complex at higher levels - just like in this game.

DoT management class. You have DoTs with short and staggered durations so that they don't always align in their reapplication. As the DoTs tick you have a chance to gain a resource point (capped at 5). You have a short duration DoT that costs a resource to apply. You have an ability that costs a resource that deals damage based on the number of DoTs you have active on the target.

Proc class. You have a basic cast spell. You have an instant spell that is guaranteed to crit. You have a big attack with a long cast time. Whenever you crit 2 times in a row with any spell, your next big attack is instant. Your dps cooldown causes all of your attacks to crit for a few seconds.

Rng class. You have a meter that builds over time. You spend meter on an attack that generates a resource point (capped at 5). This attack has a chance to hit twice and give another point. You spend 5 points to maintain an attack speed buff, or on a big attack. You have an ability that gives you a random buff for a while - one increases meter generation, one increases the chance that the builder attack hits twice, one that makes the builder attack generate 2 points per hit, one that makes the point spender attack also extend the duration of the attack speed buff, (other ones I don't remember). The random buff ability might give one, two, or five of these buffs.

It's true that rng plays a part in each one of these mechanics, and that they typically have builder-spenders. However, these mechanics are notably underdeveloped in the rotations in FF14 and I think incoporating them in addition to the good, and well-developed sequence mechanic that 14 uses at length would go a long way to making an even more diverse landscape of job rotations. Many of the jobs in FF14 have the foundation already, the devs have just been expanding in them in the wrong areas. The most interesting part of red mage's rotation is their balance of black and white mana, but for some reason this expansion they just tacked on another ability at the end of their scorch sequence.

[Ransu]

Good comeback bro, I'm impressed

Its not a "comeback" it's just a statement. If you're unhappy with the game then stop playing it. SWTOR went into a direction I didn't like so guess what I did? I unssubbed and uninstalled the game. Criticism is one thing, but if you're at the point that you're making statements that everything is boring then stop playing. If I didn't enjoy BLM so much I probably would have considered quitting this game after the SAM changes. I stuck it out because I like playing with my static group, but generally speaking, don't keep playing if you're legitimately not happy with the game.

[Payadopa]

That's the thing though, they don't design it more for the high end they design it for the more casual ppl that's why we are where we are. If they did design for the high end ppl might be on here saying that jobs are to hard and the like.

Dungeons are also have to cater to the more casual which is why they're usually easy. And also designed to be a "in and out" deal which is why they are the way they are.

Yet no casual I know asks for all tanks to have gap closers, nor that all roles must have the same DPS or that MCH has Disassemble just to name a few. All of that is because of a vocal minority yet the rest has to put up with boring jobs.

[TomsYoungerBro]

Weirdly enough, casters are the outlier in this. However, a res on BLM would be too strong due to infinite mana and SMN and BLM do both still have personal defensives, which Magick Barrier can also be used for, so it isn't as one sided as you make it out to be. Infact, with Summoner's being on a 60 second cooldown and having 2 charges, it makes it a very very useful and flexible tool that the other casters do not have, couple that with an easy job to play and you can see why SMN dominates the caster spot in TOP.

Summoner is the most played caster in TOP because of the massive amount of movement requirements, especially in P1, P4, and P6. It is not brought at all because of its tools. Tell me you don't do high-end content without telling me you don't do high-end content.

Magick Barrier is a raid-wide mit that should be seldom used as a "personal" mitigation...

However, back to Bard, you still have not shown why homogenisation has meant that Bard doesn't get picked for TOP.

I've never once argued this. You really need to go back to the original person I quoted and actually use your eyes.

[Shurrikhan]

How about an ability where a BLM instead gets a 20% dmg buff when someone is raised for the same amount of time the other person's weakness lasts? This would add excellent utility, a unique flavor, doesn't copy other jobs and would be more consistent with it's nature. Hey some casters can raise, but others can compensate for deaths on the dmg check. I also don't feel this would break the game.

I'm wondering why one would want this, though?

This is "utility" that can only be used in case of failure to make failure less punishing only in select conditions, to wildly varying value.

If the % buff were tuned around a job with similar or greater personal DPS, such as a BLM benefiting from the death of an equally-geared & -skilled SAM or another BLM, that's not too awful --though still neither thematic nor particularly lucrative-- but if it's tuned instead around benefiting from, say, a healer, then you could actually end up with a net increase to raid damage from sacrificing an AST.

And for ultimately what purpose? It's not as if BLM has some 'avenger' or 'soul-siphoning' theme that needs fleshing out, nor that such would even particularly fit with the themes it has.

Moreover, the rDPS advantage of saving a healer MP and uptime by a SMN or RDM handling the rez anyways is pretty damn conditional, whereas this wouldn't be. Should BLM ultimately contribute, via its own buffed damage, greater and/or more reliable rDPS advantages in shit-hit-the-fan situations than either of the other casters?


I'm not opposed to the more general idea, but I also don't see any reason for it, nor any connection to the what BLM is, has been, or would be a low-hanging fruit for it.

[dspguy]

Things are the way they are because the game is designed so any combination of tank/healer/dps/dps can clear 4-man content and any combination of tank x2 / healer x 2 / DPS x4 can clear raid content. The only way that works is if the classes are relatively homogenous. It has to be "plug and play" otherwise, we'd be forced to play certain jobs and the playerbase doesn't want that. *** Part of the reason why we see these burst windows on all jobs is because the jobs that didn't line up with those burst windows back in Stormblood fell out of favor. The solution by SE was to just change all of the other jobs to fit those burst windows. Which ultimately results in many jobs playing similarly.

DPS definitely aren't as cookie-cutter as tanks. There is a lot more flavor with those jobs. Tanks though... yeah, they are pretty much a template tank job with different weapons on for glamour. Nothing more.



*** Note: I think it is ridiculous by the way. The whole point of this game is we can switch jobs almost whenever we want. They SHOULD make it so some content requires a certain tank, or healer or type of DPS. It isn't hard to level a job to 90. Make us utilize our various jobs.

[Shurrikhan]

Things are the way they are because the game is designed so any combination of tank/healer/dps/dps can clear 4-man content and any combination of tank x2 / healer x 2 / DPS x4 can clear raid content. The only way that works is if the classes are relatively homogenous.

Not disagreeing with you, just this particular point, to be clear.

Except that's not remotely true at the level of leniency on offer, especially for any content that doesn't explicitly use premades.

And even without premades, they could literally just choose instead to let people swap to any job of appropriate ilvl even when in an instance.

Yes, back in Stormblood you ran comps, not jobs, if one wanted to play optimally, but rarely was that want ever also a need. It was instead a way to make up for leeches -- those who hop into a Clear or Farm party having clearly forgotten how to the majority of mechanics and thereby dying constantly, often with Alliance Raid level performance even before getting Weakness.

If we could just form parties faster in the first place and reduce the typical stress involved in PuG progression as to further build up its player population (be that by way of filtering that matchmaking and/or rewarding finer milestones, or even giving fewer tools for revenged to those who haven't prepared to even the basic extent they signed up, easing reforms after kicking someone who truly and obviously has no business being in that party yet), those 'perfect' comps would never have been worth waiting around to form.

The game just isn't hard enough, nor was even the height of differences in job characteristics/profiles (not just errant tuning) great enough, to require such homogeneity. Even back in Stormblood, the first Ultimate clear was by an odd-ball comp, featuring a then laughed-at job (DRK).

*** Note: I think it is ridiculous by the way. The whole point of this game is we can switch jobs almost whenever we want. They SHOULD make it so some content requires a certain tank, or healer or type of DPS. It isn't hard to level a job to 90. Make us utilize our various jobs.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that a fight should require a certain tank, etc., but there should definitely be, say, some mechanic that Tank A makes very noticeably easier, another than Tank B handles better, etc. Otherwise 100% agreed.

[seolhyun]

job design is on fire in the dumpster since SHB. the game is literally devolving. next xpac will probably have no positionals and hit boxes that reach the edge of space. everyone will have only one 2 min cd. it will be braindead but still slow gcd because the games built on a bad netcode that cant handle anything faster.

[Kaliesto]

I think the Job Diversity would had mattered more if the Monsters actually had some kind of weakness/Resistances toward said jobs for Normal Content to Extreme in all its forms (but disabled on Savage and Ultimate in my opinion).

Like Avian Monsters are weak against Machinist & Bards.

Maybe then Jobs would not need any particular work done on its abilities, but just give them all passive buffs and debuffs depending on the monsters.

I also think getting rid of Elemental Properties was not a good idea way back in the past, but if they ever choose to reintroduce it again make it as separate Materia slot system that is apart from the normal Battle Materia. Eureka actually had a good idea there when it came back in that form.

What the issue I see here is not allowing players have custom builds with fun substats to play with, like maybe I want to make a Machinist with a lightning subtstat built into it.

I don't think the Job's current Battle abilities need to be changed at this point, but just give substats and passive buffs/debuffs depending on the situation of the battle.

Its just one work-around I can see, maybe some of you all might have better ideas than I do.

edit -

Ultimately though what group is actually giving Feedback to the Devs that seem to be devolving our MMO over the years? That is what I like to know.

[Shurrikhan]

I think the Job Diversity would had mattered more if the Monsters actually had some kind of weakness/Resistances toward said jobs for Normal Content to Extreme in all its forms (but disabled on Savage and Ultimate in my opinion).

I agree with the broader intention, but not the approach.

Jobs needn't feel different just because they're comparatively useless against A and comparatively useful against B (and that often only because others are locked out of really interacting with B while the job in question, at least, isn't so stripped of gameplay in that setting).

There's plenty of room also for jobs to differentiate their capacities in less rock-paper-scissors but nonetheless highly noticeable ways.

To use the example of flying enemies, Air Anchor should be able to bring a flier down to the ground so melee can assault it, but a Dragoon certainly shouldn't need that; they're a melee job who... nonetheless literally hunt dragons out of the sky. Similarly, just timing a Fell Cleave for when the enemy dips into range to smash its head into the floor just as it hits you would do the trick just fine.

The difference shouldn't be so much in who can do what, but instead in the lenience:

• How responsive is the tool in that situation / for that purpose? [How much preemptive timing is necessary?]
• How broadly can it be used? [How much must one set it up through prior actions, baiting, movement, etc.?]
• How powerful is the effect? How long does it last? [Will it be enough on its own? How quickly must we capitalize on it?]

The problem is that doing more than just lock-outs (i.e., in making X useless and Y thereby comparatively useful) takes a lot more design depth, in a technical/mechanical sense.

Doing things with enemy mass so that Monk and, especially, heavy weapons wielders like DRK and WAR have an advantage in staggering enemies and AST can help lighten them as to let upward-striking skills like Full Thrust, Inner Beast, Shadow Fang, and The Forbidden Chakra punt enemies into airtime... obviously wouldn't be easy even before accounting for the ragdoll physics required.

Still, I'd love to see what a game that looks like it has a decent physics engine for a change, instead of a mockery of one, could do in that regard -- pipedream or no.