Dps jobs share at least 90% of their abilities

[VeyaAkemi]

How about an ability where a BLM instead gets a 20% dmg buff when someone is raised for the same amount of time the other person's weakness lasts? This would add excellent utility, a unique flavor, doesn't copy other jobs and would be more consistent with it's nature. Hey some casters can raise, but others can compensate for deaths on the dmg check. I also don't feel this would break the game.

In theory that's sounds really nice, in practice it would just lead to a Healer getting ordered to regularly commit suicide so the BLM can maintain a huge damage buff with near 100% uptime.

[Ath192]

In theory that's sounds really nice, in practice it would just lead to a Healer getting ordered to regularly commit suicide so the BLM can maintain a huge damage buff with near 100% uptime.

If you mean for parsing reasons no, because the buff would get subtracted

[Frodnoxx]

The thing is, at what perspective do you look from? I am looking at rotations as a whole and comparing them, whilst you seem to want to strip away various things until you get to something that you can claim looks the same and then use that to say all jobs play the same. Take it to the extreme and you can claim that, since all jobs use the GCD and oGCDs, they all play the same. Obviously, this is an absurd simplification which noone should take seriously, but it should highlight the fact that, if you ignore too much of something, everything is going to look the same.

One could take the opposite extreme and say that if you nitpick too much of something, everything is going to look different. That would be equally as absurd.

My perspective is looking at the rotations in comparison to other rotations in this game and in other similar tab targeting MMOs. I'm not stripping away or ignoring elements of melee's designs. I have acknowledged that there are differences and even said they were significant, but I am also saying that those differences fall short when looking at how rotations can be crafted at a foundational level.

We can analyze a rotation by breaking it down to its rotation design mechanics. Some examples of mechanics are: ogcds, cooldowns, debuff/buff maintenance, gauges, damage windows, procs/other rng.

In this game, a very, very prevelant mechanic is the static, linear sequence of actions. This includes combos in all of its forms, shapes, and sizes and also includes samurai sens, mudras, perfect balance, paladin magic, reaper shroud, machinist heat, dancer steps, red mage resolution, etc. You have a goal and to achieve that goal you execute an ordered sequence of actions. This is a great mechanic and I have no complaints about it. The issue is that it is sorely overused. This one mechanic - this one avenue of skill expression predominates all of the melee, tanks, and machinist rotations. While the other mechanics listed above are in these rotations as well, they are at their most rudimentary and exist just as add-ons to the rotations - artificial difficulty padding.

[VeyaAkemi]

If you mean for parsing reasons no, because the buff would get subtracted

You are missing the point, Healers and Tanks objectively have lower DPS than, well, DPS, so imagine the following: The BLM is managing 10k DPS, the Healer is dealing 5k, for a total of 15k between both of them, the Healer dies and gets rezzed by the BLM with this hypotetical skill, the Healer now has Weakness, which is a -25% to Mind, and the BLM has a +20% damage buff, on paper it seem like a poor exchange, you lost 5% there, in practice, the BLM is now dealing 12k DPS, while the Healer, is now dealing 3.750k, for a total of 15.750 DPS, meaning there was a notable increase in overall party damage, for basically no cost, and this math gets worse if the Healer is an AST, whose extremely low personal damage means they'd benefit far more from sacc'ing for the BLM buff.

[Ath192]

You are missing the point, Healers and Tanks objectively have lower DPS than, well, DPS, so imagine the following: The BLM is managing 10k DPS, the Healer is dealing 5k, for a total of 15k between both of them, the Healer dies and gets rezzed by the BLM with this hypotetical skill, the Healer now has Weakness, which is a -25% to Mind, and the BLM has a +20% damage buff, on paper it seem like a poor exchange, you lost 5% there, in practice, the BLM is now dealing 12k DPS, while the Healer, is now dealing 3.750k, for a total of 15.750 DPS, meaning there was a notable increase in overall party damage, for basically no cost, and this math gets worse if the Healer is an AST, whose extremely low personal damage means they'd benefit far more from sacc'ing for the BLM buff.

I mean only if you implement my idea literally which isn't the point. It's a concept right. They could do a standard 5% buff or depending on role... etc etc..

I would expect someone to finetune it so it doesn't break the game or encourage crappy behavior. If its healers it could be a 5%, Tanks a 7% and DPS a 10% if need be or whatever combo.

The biggest push I want to make is to move jobs away from each other, instead of making them all the same thing.

[Frodnoxx]

How about an ability where a BLM instead gets a 20% dmg buff when someone is raised for the same amount of time the other person's weakness lasts? This would add excellent utility, a unique flavor, doesn't copy other jobs and would be more consistent with it's nature. Hey some casters can raise, but others can compensate for deaths on the dmg check. I also don't feel this would break the game.

I do like this line of thinking. Something that mitigates the penalty of failing mechanics would be an interesting way to add some greatly needed utility and identity to jobs. Maybe an ability that can cleanse vulns/dmg downs? A job that can self-rez? A job that can survive a would-be death once? A rez that doesn't apply weakness?

An argument could be made that mechanics should be punishing and these would be overpowered, but I argue that having other ways to interact with mechanics than to just do it as intended is more fun and enjoyable. Of course, as you said, safeguards and tuning will need to be involved to not encourage undesirable behaviour or extreme cheesing.

[Mikey_R]

One could take the opposite extreme and say that if you nitpick too much of something, everything is going to look different. That would be equally as absurd.

This isn't nit picking though, this is looking at the broader picture. Seeing the forest for the trees as the saying goes.

However, I am intrigued. I am ignorant as to how other tab target MMOs have core rotational differences between jobs where they do not feel the same to play. If you (or someone else) doesn't mind providing examples, or point me to some good examples as a starting point, I would welcome the extra knowledge.

[Ath192]

This isn't nit picking though, this is looking at the broader picture. Seeing the forest for the trees as the saying goes.

However, I am intrigued. I am ignorant as to how other tab target MMOs have core rotational differences between jobs where they do not feel the same to play. If you (or someone else) doesn't mind providing examples, or point me to some good examples as a starting point, I would welcome the extra knowledge.

For a tab target completely different battle system you could look at XI. Now, that is outdated however, I am a big fan of the diversity of spells mages had in that game. Even if a lot of them were useless, there were travel spells, haste, refreshes etc...

I would welcome vanity spells or abilities that you could perform that do weird alternative things. Maybe Black mage can warp, without costing gil, WHM can cast a unique Teleport for free to certain locations that takes 15 seconds to cast. Astrologian can change the weather for 5 minutes with a 24 hour cooldown ability, Now these abilities you could leave off your hotbar but could open a menu to cast them.

DRG can summon their wyvern in non-instanced combat and it just auto attacks or has a small move set. Red mage can do a show off spell that would play a rose blooming animation just because, ninja could shukuchi where upon using it they it opens a map and you can choose the location to appear in even if its on the other side with a 2 hour cooldown.

I mean, Bard has performance mode. Thats kind of cool. I'm not into it. But I appreciate it. Stuff like that.

All of these things would add to the charm of each job. Not every skill has to be tied down only to combat and raiding.

[Shurrikhan]

I am ignorant as to how other tab target MMOs have core rotational differences between jobs where they do not feel the same to play. If you (or someone else) doesn't mind providing examples, or point me to some good examples as a starting point, I would welcome the extra knowledge.

Not all of them are examples of a design well done, but...

The first difference is that these fixed "combos" are a kind of button-bloat that tends to be pretty unique to XIV. What most will do instead is simply to have CDs or builder-spender systems (think Kenki, but generally built faster and using GCDs for its spenders, too). But then they usually add something else atop it, such as near-fillers or procs.

Aside: Let's consider a "filler" here to be a skill of lowest priority for its broad category (e.g., ST | Cleave | AoE) and which, though it may have a recharge time, tends to produce a rotational flow that has zero downtime, at least unless mistakes are made.

Unlike true filler, near-fillers are almost always available, but are generally situational. Let's say you're a MCH who might always be able to use a long-cast, immobile Sniper Shot, but because of its low damage relative to time spent you wouldn't actually do so except if...

• playing from extreme range where there is no relative disadvantage to doing so (a unique positional context) and/or
• you had already built up stacks of a certain buff that reduces the uptime cost so much that it becomes a damage increase.

Procs, meanwhile, are just your chance effects, much like MCH used to operate around. But especially in a context that is both more CD-laden (such that you want to keep these CDs rolling with minimal wasted value from their refreshing at the same time, which often means varying your priority order) and more modular (no actions require 3+ GCDs of uptime to pay off), those can do a lot if acting on GCDs or resource-spenders.

Rotations elsewhere, therefore, may still have decently complex burst windows, but all but the simplest tends to have more considerations going on also in the short-term. E.g.,

If I delay this thing I'd normally hit on CD for a half-second of GCD-downtime to get my auto-attack in, I'll have more resource by which to exploit the buff that attack can produce, which would allow me to refresh my DoT at its highest possible damage ramp before I swap off targets and it goes invulnerable to new attacks (though not already existent debuffs), and that buffed DoT's resource contribution will then be enough to generate enough resource per attack from my autos thereafter that I can consistently stagger-lock the add)...

That kind of enjoyable shenanigans that some say "depends" more on contextual complexity, but ultimately just has a far higher ceiling despite a roughly equal floor to our combo-based stuff.

Probably the most similar I've felt to the combat provided by other tab-target MMOs has been high-SkS Stormblood SAM or ludicrous-SkS HW Monk / mid-speed Tornado Kick Monk in StB. Or BLM even now.

As for how they differ from one another:

• button-pathing (which, remember, is not at all linear there, and in instead tied up with synergies and purposeful desync as not to waste cooling time, etc.),
  
  
• what the overarching resource system is and how that changes opportunity costs and skill categories (an AoE skill perhaps being able to funnel resource generated per enemy struck into ST burst for higher interplay, etc.),
  
  
• and what portions of skills can serve multiple ends and what can be banked, and how therefore those should be banked (often allowing for different player-habitual approaches to combat and higher reward for knowing each encounter to that point that one can see which approach will be better in the short term, mid term, and long term.
  
  (Classes that tend to have the short-term answer also be the best overall tend to feel more aggressive, the mid term ones more measured and opportunistic, the long term ones more patient and planned-out, etc.)

[R041]

This isn't nit picking though, this is looking at the broader picture. Seeing the forest for the trees as the saying goes.

However, I am intrigued. I am ignorant as to how other tab target MMOs have core rotational differences between jobs where they do not feel the same to play. If you (or someone else) doesn't mind providing examples, or point me to some good examples as a starting point, I would welcome the extra knowledge.

I think the absolute biggest difference is that other MMO's with 'rotations' put more general emphasis on class reactive gameplay. Not even considering the 2min meta we have here, we're also completely devoid of situational or reactive abilities that aren't strictly 'Single Target Boss', 'AoE on Trash'. There's no situational flavor Rock, Paper, Scissors. It's all Scissors and we're Rock.

Everyone feels the same, because they ultimately have the same exact pattern, nothing ever changes because nobody reacts, or CAN react in different ways to different content. We all just.. Act. We're scripted to a very basic system of only ever really doing Damage. We don't even really have types of damage anymore..

As an example, just imagine a DPS class with utility that also has some type of AoE sludge they can throw on the ground - You're running through a dungeon, random pack spawns behind the group, so you throw sludge AoE to give time for everyone to react to it. Maybe another class can build off of you and light that sludge on fire or something.

There's just no.. Reactive or collaborative interaction. Regardless of our rotations, we still have 0 environmental or semi-fluff abilities to change up that 'rotation'. You just run forward, kill group with no thought, run forward. This is basically where other MMOs shine. :/