This game is on a terrible state right now.

[Kaurhz]

It's not the devs fault you are having a hard time finding people to do things with you. But yeah, I would argue that MMOs are based around finding people to do things with, and in my honest opinion that should be mandatory. Now, if this were a single player title then yes that would be super unreasonable.

As such, instead of the devs inserting bots I would argue the onus is on you to socialize and network within the MMO to achieve your tasks. Your view on this issue is one of instant gratification or bust, and to me I view that as entitlement.

You need to consider that most people progressing through the MSQ, especially early on most likely will not have made a sufficient amount of friends to network suitably in the first place. e.g., the first dungeon pretty much being within the first hour of gameplay within the MSQ. Most players will simply want to progress through the MSQ, try it out, and then do networking if the game is worth the time.

My argument is just simply thus that it is not the most engaging gameplay experience to be sat in a queue for an exorbitant amount of time when you're a new player still progressing through the game. If I were, to be frank, the ideal solution for them probably wouldn't even be technically feasible in their case anyway. But regardless of what you think to say that people who were put off by this fact of sitting in a queue were asking for a less MMO experience is again just delusional. Further, the fact that every single duty is instanced in this game is practically the antithesis of an MMO experience in the first place, which actually links to the whole "Sat in a query to do dungeons with 3 other people" - Is still not the most riveting experience. It's not exactly very MMO-like. In fact, it's so bad that the larger-scale raids over-rely on events on Discord.

The above is why, regardless, I will always find your observation to be disingenuous at best. You're welcome to view it as you wish, but the criticism itself is practically one that is very open to interpretation, and the interpretation that the developers took was just duty support to streamline everything.

[Ath192]

If I were, to be frank, the ideal solution for them probably wouldn't even be technically feasible in their case anyway. But regardless of what you think to say that people who were put off by this fact of sitting in a queue were asking for a less MMO experience is again just delusional.

Can I say that you just made that up, completely by yourself, then somehow decided to blame me for it, and acted like I said that all along? You said that.

While I do agree that it dilutes the MMO formula that's not my main concern nor did I blame that specific group of players for asking for less of an MMO. As far as I know, no one asked for those bots to be rolled out to the whole game. That was the Devs idea just because.

A large part of the population asked to nerf everything and their mother in here, and it got nerfed, making it less of an MMO. So yeah, people don't even talk anymore, just o/ and gg because the content is so braindead talking about it would be cringe.

The game still would be better if they devoted those resources to make extra zones they can release mid expansion with things going on in them. 100%

[Kaurhz]

Can I say that you just made that up, completely by yourself, then somehow decided to blame me for it, and acted like I said that all along? You said that.

While I do agree that it dilutes the MMO formula that's not my main concern nor did I blame that specific group of players for asking for less of an MMO. As far as I know, no one asked for those bots to be rolled out to the whole game. That was the Devs idea just because.

The game still would be better if they devoted those resources to make extra zones they can release mid expansion with things going on in them. 100%

You pretty much made stated people were complaining the game was too MMOish... Pretty much creating the implication that said people wanted less of an MMO experience. Duty Support is just the pretty much most applicable scenario to use in this case. If your implication was not thus then I apologise but it seemed pretty clear cut what you were implying with the statement of "Too MMOish"

In an ideal world innovation shouldn't come at the expense of other systems. And it is true, other people have been put in my shoes, and they incessantly complained things were too hard, too inconvenient, too grindy, too MMOish and they were absolutely rewarded since they gutted the game.

This is the only situation where your "Too MMO-ish even applies. In fact, if the insurgence of venues etc., was indicative of anything then it just suggests that people like 'Too MMOish, not less'

I would just rather they didn't release any zones and reworked the core gameplay. As much as I love this game, and its systems (I really do), it's just impossible to shake the fact that this is a co-op game masquerading as an MMO, and has been that way since the inception of the game, anyone will struggle to convince me otherwise outside of EM in 3.55b. You say the onus is only on the player etc., However, most people are in city-states because absolutely everything in this game is an instance, and an instance that is resolved by a simple duty finder, there is very little to incentivize players to actually network in the first place, most especially with respect to veterans. - It's very easy to say this when you're a veteran player, even I could say it easily. Not so much when you're a sprout.

[Ath192]

Duty Support is just the pretty much most applicable scenario to use in this case.

You said that, not I. So it's pretty indicative of what you think of this system.


To me, that is just one of the long list of things this game has nerfed to make the cooperation between players less and less relevant each time.

[Kaurhz]

You said that, not I. So it's pretty indicative of what you think of this system.


To me, that is just one of the long list of things this game has nerfed to make the cooperation between players less and less relevant each time.

Yes, well done, you've managed to read. I don't think I have ever said that I was happy with Duty Support, the only comment I made was that it was an 'appropriate' remedy to complaints that some people had - Did I state it was ideal or good? No. The only dispute I had was that you alleged people felt or complained that the game was too MMOish. If it's not for Duty Support then I am not sure where else you're getting these 'too MMOish' complaints from, I'd be interested to see your examples with respect to complaining about 'too MMOish' if not this system, most especially since you have concluded yourself that nobody asked for it.

Always was -mostly- irrelevant. Again, the game is a glorified co-op masquerading as an MMO, which has always been the case. You have raids, which consist solely of 8-man, and infrequently 24-man. You have zones barely the size of the wilderness in Runescape which are separated further by other zones, and traversing the world is facilitated by flying in a zone barely the size of the Wilderness.

You talk of the game should add more zones midway in expansion with things going on in them, e.g., exploratory content. However, they should not even be zones in the first place and they should be outright added into the core 'open world' integral of this game. I can assure you the game has many systems since its inception which are the antithesis of an MMO, more so than probably any example you can come up with. If they weren't, some features such as playing with bots would not even be necessary in the first place because people would already be in the open world, as would everything that the player needs, and people would also be encouraged to go into said world beyond just an A/S/SS rank and story (oh, and gathering...).

The game has never really actually been an MMO, and most systems embedding as its core designs are the antithesis of one.

[Ath192]

Always was -mostly- irrelevant. Again, the game is a glorified co-op masquerading as an MMO

I can assure you the game has many systems since its inception which are the antithesis of an MMO,

Okay if we mostly agree then why are we arguing? I already gave you my biggest example making all main content braindead. Dungeons, normal raids, alliance raids in other MMOs have normally been more on the challenging side of things, this makes people talk and cooperate as they should in an MMO. Then there's removal of exploration and travel, now you can teleport into every 5 inches of any zone in the game, they are taking out all the grinds, relic included. They let RMTs design the economic system so naturally most good things are untradeable so commerce kind of sucks.

The cardinal sin this game has committed to me is to make you, the player, irrelevant. The game does it all for you. And it gets worse each xpac. Did you know that you don't matter? Content is so easy that outside of very few select raids you are utterly unneeded. Where in other MMOs a vet player can have a good time helping other people get through content, run a lot of midcore stuff and they are usually the staple of good guilds you as a player in this game couldn't matter any less. FC's, even large ones don't have a lot going on in regards to actual gameplay. As a vet in this game there isn't anything for you to do, and unless you're into savage and feel like hopping in a PF for fun, same 4 fights for months at a time, there's hardly anyone to help either because content is so watered down it runs itself. But at least you can throw yourself into a grind with the relic for a cool weapon... oh wait. They took that out too.

This is something Bozja excelled at with CLL, people actually had to talk and coordinate. Same with Stormblood in Orbonne, and heck even in the mist, a dungeon. You had to explain to people, at least a few things to minimize the risk of a wipe. But nope, people apparently proved allergic to talking and working together so they asked for a nerf so they could do whatever the hell they felt like and still clear the instance.

By Zones I consider Coerthas a zone for example, you zone into everything, Limsa, Eastern La Noscea. I don't mean instances. Imo Bozja shouldve been a zone accessible by travelling to it in the overworld, not an instance with a timer. Same with Eureka. If at all possible I would like the overworld to not be split into zones and just become a single mass of land. There's a lot of places that I'd like to go explore. Like the shores and distant forests you can see looking down from Idyllshire.

[Kaurhz]

Okay if we mostly agree then why are we arguing? I already gave you my biggest example making all main content braindead. Dungeons, normal raids, alliance raids in other MMOs have normally been more on the challenging side of things, this makes people talk and cooperate as they should in an MMO. Then there's removal of exploration and travel, now you can teleport into every 5 inches of any zone in the game, they are taking out all the grinds, relic included. They let RMTs design the economic system so naturally most good things are untradeable so commerce kind of sucks.

The cardinal sin this game has committed to me is to make you, the player, irrelevant. The game does it all for you. And it gets worse each xpac. Did you know that you don't matter? Content is so easy that outside of very few select raids you are utterly unneeded. Where in other MMOs a vet player can have a good time helping other people get through content, run a lot of midcore stuff and they are usually the staple of good guilds you as a player in this game couldn't matter any less. FC's, even large ones don't have a lot going on in regards to actual gameplay. As a vet in this game there isn't anything for you to do, and unless you're into savage and feel like hopping in a PF for fun, same 4 fights for months at a time, there's hardly anyone to help either because content is so watered down it runs itself. But at least you can throw yourself into a grind with the relic for a cool weapon... oh wait. They took that out too.

This is something Bozja excelled at with CLL, people actually had to talk and coordinate. Same with Stormblood in Orbonne, and heck even in the mist, a dungeon. You had to explain to people, at least a few things to minimize the risk of a wipe. But nope, people apparently proved allergic to talking and working together so they asked for a nerf so they could do whatever the hell they felt like and still clear the instance.

By Zones I consider Coerthas a zone for example, you zone into everything, Limsa, Eastern La Noscea. I don't mean instances. Imo Bozja shouldve been a zone accessible by travelling to it in the overworld, not an instance with a timer. Same with Eureka. If at all possible I would like the overworld to not be split into zones and just become a single mass of land. There's a lot of places that I'd like to go explore. Like the shores and distant forests you can see looking down from Idyllshire.

Mostly on the premise of 'too MMO' / confusion. - I personally think the game has always been this case. I don't necessarily think the game has gotten easier, bar job execution. I just think the players have gotten disproportionately better when compared to how the game has been growing. E.g., I think for the most part, the game has gotten harder, if I were to look at it mechanically. However, the amount of leeway afforded is greater. e.g., unless the attack dooms, or daisy chains you to death, then for the most part you can just ignore it and your HP will regenerate naturally before the next mechanic. If I were to compare, say, HW/SB to ShB/EW, I feel that I have had to look at the environment a bit more rather than just cast-bar.

Some of this may be answered as I'm replying as I read...

Exploration and travel should be integral to the game. People should feel inclined to go out into the open world, rather than everything be a zone. E.g., rather than have a Bozja equivalent, I would just have the core systems of Bozja embedded into the open world. Part of the difficulty in networking in this game is that it is not entirely fluid, e.g., in an ideal situation and MMO you will just meet people in the open world, rather than needing to, for example, go to a city-state. - In this sense, yes, the onus would be on the player to socialize, however, the onus is should also be there to ensure this is facilitated in a more natural manner. It's not an expectation of feeling entitled, but rather just the game does not do a good enough job in pitting players with players outside of an instanced duty. In the ideal world, I could traverse the world doing the MSQ and see people naturally along the way, e.g., in Western Thanalan. It's never really done this, except prior to the release of PotD 3.35, back when people were actually running FATE trains in the open world, exactly as they did with Eureka Anemos/Pagos, albeit in a faster pace.

The biggest reason I dislike Eureka and Bozja is simply that they are demonstrable cases of how the world itself should be and not just a singular zone, and the simple fact it realistically took them 5 years to actually get to something that wasn't just... FATEs in a new aesthetic.

I can't say that I can relate to CLL... This is not me being a contrarian or anything but of my 40-ish runs of CLL, people didn't really communicate much bar the % of the doorman. Beyond that? Was just people throwing corpses at the boss until it fell, with no real major communication behind it. This, I only really felt with BA, frankly.

I could get behind this, but I could only get behind it in the sense of whether it is something that can be done from the get-go of the game, in the sense that any leveled player could do it, if it's not then I still take issue, personally. I think the fact that many people seem to view exploratory content as making or breaking for an expansion (which is fine), just goes to highlight the sheer mistake of not trying to apply it to the grander scheme of things. Do you know how sad it is, that the only reason I have to visit Eastern La Noscea is to kill 'The Garlok'? - Personally, I think there should be just as much incentive for any player regardless of level to visit any given area of the game, as they would with visiting Eureka or Bozja, that is to say, I think the incentivization should mostly be the same. Granted, I'm a little more understanding of limitations, hence my 'vocality', or lack thereof on this. I do think everything should be a single mass of land, yes. Or at the very least should be larger than it currently is. At least enough to make flying feel warranted. Again, flying in areas that are 'zoned' off, which I think are no bigger than, say, Wilderness in Runescape... Just makes the world feel so much smaller than it is.