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  1. #71
    Player
    ForsakenRoe's Avatar
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    Apr 2019
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    2,340
    Character
    Samantha Redgrayve
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 100
    That pic looks familiar
    (0)

  2. #72
    Player
    Silver-Strider's Avatar
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    Mar 2015
    Location
    Gridania
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    1,753
    Character
    Silver Strider
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras View Post
    The main differences between ARR and EW WHM are not in number of buttons, but in frequency of use for Aero, Aero 2, and Fluid Aura since they had shorter durations (CD for FA) than Dia, Afflatus, and Assize.
    *Cough* Cleric Stance *Cough*
    (1)

  3. #73
    Player
    Renathras's Avatar
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    Dec 2014
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    2,747
    Character
    Ren Thras
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe View Post
    That pic looks familiar
    It's a good pic for what it is.

    .

    You guys can accuse me of a lot of things, but I do register agreement where it's due. If you'd like a more thorough one:

    EDIT:



    While WHM is arguably the same in number of damage buttons then as now (the main difference, as I said in the Healers Then And Now thread, being that they cast less GCD heals between more oGCDs and more Lily heals) is the shorter duration on Aero and the shorter CD on the oGCD (which doesn't help with Stone/Glare spam. Stone 1 didn't have a unique effect generally used, whereas Ruin 2 had a distinct use case for movement and weaving. Aero 2 was used on average the same amount that Solace/Rapture/Misery are (once per 18 sec vs an average of once per 15 sec), and as noted, Cleric stance was not in common use by WHMs until late ARR (for high end players) or into HW (for more average players), being mainly treated by players and Devs as a soloing ability.

    Note that in HW, the abilities expanded a bit with SCH getting Miasma 2 and WHM getting Aero 3 and Assize, as well as AST coming onto the scene, though its kit more resembled WHM. With more oGCD healing, WHMs were able to transition to more Cleric Stance use, though it was still highly dependent on which part of the community you were in (to be fair, so was SCH's, but SCH using Cleric even in ARR seems to have been much more prevalent). AST could also Cross-Class Aero for a bit more damage, though I don't recall if Blizzard 2 was any more useful for them since they had Gravity (I don't recall which had the higher potency at the time, that is...)

    From its height, SCH fell far in terms of damage abilities.

    AST's fall was in utility, first inbuffs, then in stances and ability to slot into parties (even AST/AST wasn't an issue).

    WHM didn't really have one. It's "fall" was in SB, not ShB, and in ShB and EW, it improved. Its position in EW is approximately equal to its position in ARR.

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver-Strider View Post
    *Cough* Cleric Stance *Cough*
    HIGHLY dependent on player, content, and era. For a lot of ARR, Cleric was used (by WHM) mainly as a soloing tool. It was really 2nd Coil Savage that changed that. SCH not as much since a large portion of its healing kit ignored Cleric, but WHM's only Cleric ignoring ability was Benediction and Stoneskin - the 3 second cast that had a potency dependent on the target's max HP.

    Again, if we're talking SCH? Absolutely correct.

    If we're talking WHM? Much less so.

    A good deal of old content clear videos even still up today have the WHM either never go into Cleric or very rarely do so. So no, that really isn't a distinction unless we're talking specifically 2nd Coil Savage (which was basically an Ultimate for the era), or getting into HW.

    People forget how little people optimized - or knew to - in ARR. You can argue with what we know NOW, people would have used it more...but that isn't relevant to how it was played at the time.
    (0)
    Last edited by Renathras; 04-28-2023 at 02:19 PM. Reason: Marked with EDIT

  4. #74
    Player
    Silver-Strider's Avatar
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    Mar 2015
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    1,753
    Character
    Silver Strider
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras View Post
    HIGHLY dependent on player, content, and era. For a lot of ARR, Cleric was used (by WHM) mainly as a soloing tool. It was really 2nd Coil Savage that changed that. SCH not as much since a large portion of its healing kit ignored Cleric, but WHM's only Cleric ignoring ability was Benediction and Stoneskin - the 3 second cast that had a potency dependent on the target's max HP.

    Again, if we're talking SCH? Absolutely correct.

    If we're talking WHM? Much less so.

    A good deal of old content clear videos even still up today have the WHM either never go into Cleric or very rarely do so. So no, that really isn't a distinction unless we're talking specifically 2nd Coil Savage (which was basically an Ultimate for the era), or getting into HW.

    People forget how little people optimized - or knew to - in ARR. You can argue with what we know NOW, people would have used it more...but that isn't relevant to how it was played at the time.
    It was still a DPS tool regardless of optimization though. It might not have seen much usage in Raids but it was sure used everywhere else. Hell, I remember a run of Halitali where the WHM kept Cleric Stance on for most of the run without issue, despite repeated pleas from the Tank to turn it off. 2nd Coil was also when I found my 1st static way back when and they actively encouraged Cleric Stance usage as much as possible when I played with them, even on my WHM. I couldn't have it on 24/7 like SCH could but finding those moments of levity that let me squeeze in at least my Aero spells was the fun part. If we're only going to consider Raids in regards to Cleric Stance, you might as well not count any of WHM's DPS skills since the overwhelming majority of WHM's time in Coils was spent just healing, even with skills like Convalance, Divine Seal and practically every job that used TP having access to Mantra to help supplement heals.
    (1)

  5. #75
    Player
    Sebazy's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    3,468
    Character
    Sebazy Spiritwalker
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras View Post
    <snip>
    My bad, missed that bit of the context
    (1)
    ~ WHM / badSCH / Snob ~ http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/871132/ ~

  6. #76
    Player
    ForsakenRoe's Avatar
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    Apr 2019
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    2,340
    Character
    Samantha Redgrayve
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 100
    Just FYI SCH had Miasma 2 in ARR as well, it wasn't a HW addition, also for ARR, SCH had Bio (18), Miasma (hardcast, 24), Bio 2 (hardcast, 30). At least, so says WaybackMachine (note the top saying the version of the page is from 2013)

    Wow I didn't realise how dog the potencies were on things back then. 20 for Miasma 2 spam? 80 for Ruin? Really? Guess they were all-in on the 'put your DOTs up and spread them' playstyle
    (4)
    Last edited by ForsakenRoe; 04-28-2023 at 08:40 PM.

  7. #77
    Player
    Deceptus's Avatar
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    Sep 2013
    Location
    The Goblet - 16th Ward, Plot 55
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    4,418
    Character
    Deceptus Keelon
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe View Post
    Just FYI SCH had Miasma 2 in ARR as well, it wasn't a HW addition, also for ARR, SCH had Bio (18), Miasma (hardcast, 24), Bio 2 (hardcast, 30). At least, so says WaybackMachine (note the top saying the version of the page is from 2013)

    Wow I didn't realise how dog the potencies were on things back then. 20 for Miasma 2 spam? 80 for Ruin? Really? Guess they were all-in on the 'put your DOTs up and spread them' playstyle
    GamerEscape has a tool that allows you to see version histories for spells / abilities

    https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/M...sion%20History
    (1)
    Veteran healers don't care if we need to heal, but right now we don't. We want interesting things to do during the downtime other than a 30s dot and a single filler spell that hasn't changed from lvl 4 to lvl 90.
    Dead DPS do no DPS. Raised DPS do 25/50% lower DPS. Do the mechanics and don't stand in bad stuff.
    Other games expect basic competence, FFXIV is pleasantly surprised by it. Other games have toxic elitism. FFXIV has toxic casualism.[/LIST]

  8. #78
    Player
    ForsakenRoe's Avatar
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    Apr 2019
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    2,340
    Character
    Samantha Redgrayve
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 100
    While we can see when stuff was added, and removed, we can't see eg the potency of the skill as it was in patch 2.5 (unless I'm bad and just can't see how to do that). Running it through Wayback Machine might show the older tooltip to the skill though



    Yeh seems to work, this is the page as it was in 2014
    (1)

  9. #79
    Player
    Absurdity's Avatar
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    Feb 2018
    Posts
    2,990
    Character
    Tiana Vestoria
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe View Post
    Just FYI SCH had Miasma 2 in ARR as well, it wasn't a HW addition, also for ARR, SCH had Bio (18), Miasma (hardcast, 24), Bio 2 (hardcast, 30). At least, so says WaybackMachine (note the top saying the version of the page is from 2013)

    Wow I didn't realise how dog the potencies were on things back then. 20 for Miasma 2 spam? 80 for Ruin? Really? Guess they were all-in on the 'put your DOTs up and spread them' playstyle
    Potencies were pretty much all dog until Stormblood, where the potency creep slowly began. And didn't they only recently fix the different scaling between spell and melee potencies? So spells were extra dog in ARR because they scaled differently.

    Fell Cleave was 500 potency in HW, Fire IV was 280.
    (4)

  10. #80
    Player
    ForsakenRoe's Avatar
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    Apr 2019
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    2,340
    Character
    Samantha Redgrayve
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 100
    Fire 4 was also buffed by 80% invisibly due to the Astral Fire 3 effect, so it was more like 500 (calculator says 504), but yeh there were some odd inconsistencies caused by the phys/magic split calculations

    Crazy to think that 'capstone 2min big damage skill' Dragonfire Dive was like 300 potency, and now we have 'capstone 2min big damage skills' like Ogi or Plentiful Harvest. Hell, Communio isn't even '2min' it's 'every time you enshroud', same with RDM combos you get like 5 of those per 2mins, they really should have dropped all the potency values to more reasonable amounts when they did the statsquish
    (4)

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