The Healers should be reworked? New player perspective.

[Renathras]

So change that. It's not written on the rosetta stone that a class can function horizontally to the jobs. That's just how it's been handled. Impossible is adding in a real-time first person shooter segment to a fight.

So do the completely more convoluted and complicated thing rather than just add a new Job?

Tell me, what IS your aversion to adding a new Job?

You are the one that doesn't want to share WHM. You are the one arguing that it's your way or the highway.

AUROCHSHITE.

That's you.

I've said before I'd give up WHM and take SGE instead. OR SCH. Or even AST, despite me not liking AST at all. I've literally said that I'd give up any one of them, or up to THREE of them, and the one I keep is whichever one. That I'd be willing to trade LITERALLY ANY OF THEM. That even if the one you left for me was the one I like THE LEAST - AST - I'd accept that and be happy.

My only argument for WHM is that it's the most LOGICAL to be kept simple. Something you, with your gigabrain (I genuinely do think your intelligent - infuriating and often wrong, but intelligent), should be able to see the rationality of.

.

[EDIT: To use the child toy analogy, this is the difference:

Me: Here are four toys, my friend. You pick any three you like. Whichever one you like the least, I'll take.
You: Here are four toys, my friend. And here's some dog poop in the shape of one of the toys. I get all the toys. You can play with the dog poop that is in the shape of one of the toys.

THAT is the difference between us.

If you can't see the difference between "You pick the ones you like most and I'll take the leftovers" (which is selfless) and "I'll take everything and give you the dregs I don't even want" (which is selfish), then you're blind. WILLFULLY so.]

The CNJ suggestion is literally about making it specifically so that everyone has it their way.

Ex-cept-it-ISN'T.

MY way would be me having WHM.
Or SCH.
OR SGE.
OR AST.

...it doesn't matter to me which one - and you getting the rest.

ALTERNATIVELY, getting DRU or GEO - something you don't have now and wouldn't be giving up to give me, so it requires no sacrifice on your part other than you give up the option to MAYBE get them at some point in the future (which isn't even a guarantee). And you won't even do that.

Can you explain to me how 'Two versions of the same job, one with additional DPS buttons and one without, where all other abilities are the same across both' is being selfish,

BECAUSE ONLY ONE IS A JOB.

and how 'Leave my job alone. This is the way that I want it, and no one else is allowed to speak against that' is being selfless?

BECAUSE LITERALLY NO ONE IS MAKING THIS ARGUMENT.

I reiterate:

I've said before I'd give up WHM and take SGE instead. OR SCH. Or even AST, despite me not liking AST at all. I've literally said that I'd give up any one of them, or up to THREE of them, and the one I keep is whichever one. That I'd be willing to trade LITERALLY ANY OF THEM. That even if the one you left for me was the one I like THE LEAST - AST - I'd accept that and be happy.

My only argument for WHM is that it's the most LOGICAL to be kept simple. Something you, with your gigabrain (I genuinely do think your intelligent - infuriating and often wrong, but intelligent), should be able to see the rationality of.

NO ONE is making the "leave my thing alone and no one gets to speak against it".

I've even offered to sacrifice my favorite one AND give you two more AND take the one I LIKE THE LEAST AND DO NOT CURRENTLY EVEN PLAY.

You can't get more selfless than that other than giving up absolutely EVERYTHING. And that's a far cry from your unwillingness to give up ANYthing.

Thall's Balls, but you're frustrating, Ty.

.

EDIT:

But seriously:

What IS your aversion to adding a new Job?

I'm right, aren't I? You don't want to give up an actual JOB like GEO or DRU because, in the off chance they might someday be added, YOU want those TOO.

It cannot be that it's "too much work/too complicated" since your own proposal is far more work and far more complicated. That fig leaf won't work.

[ty_taurus]

So do the completely more convoluted and complicated thing rather than just add a new Job?

Tell me, what IS your aversion to adding a new Job?

Do you have any idea how much work it takes to create a new job from scratch? You need to create an all new weapon type and create several weapons across the levels gained through it, new splash art for the job, fully animate and add effects to upwards of 30 different actions, write a job story to introduce the new job and program in all those quests, create a new PVP playstyle for it as well, create new pixel art of it for deep dungeons, design a new icon, need I go on?

Let's not forget that it would also be added at level 80, meaning the player would need to go through everything up to Shadowbringers before accessing this minimum DPS new healer, something you were adamantly against a page prior, yet now you're suddenly in favor of it?

You know what it takes to make CNJ, the healer available at level 1, able to fulfill that role instead? You copy and paste WHM's abilities over to CNJ, add CNJ as a class that can equip all of WHM's equipment, and replace a handful of actions with traits that provide a flat potency increase to your DPS buttons, something that can be done in a matter of minutes. The only remotely challenging part about this is ensuring the potencies are balanced, but even that requires a very modest amount of white box testing. As someone who works in game design, I can tell you that we're talking a difference of 10s of thousands of dollars of work.

If you genuinely believe it's easier, less complicated, and more efficient to add an entire new job into the game exclusively for the purpose of creating an easy-mode healer for players who can't handle the DPS actions, then I have no idea what you're taking.

Maybe you're the one who can't tolerate the idea of someone enjoying a future WHM that has an engaging DPS rotation even when you are provided with something that is exactly as you want it to be.

[ASkellington]

snip

I'm more curious as to why he's so against letting WHM even GROW as a healer.

Like, what entirely is so wrong with having a healer designed to be easy to heal with and easy to do damage with when healing is not required?

[ty_taurus]

I'm more curious as to why he's so against letting WHM even GROW as a healer.

Like, what entirely is so wrong with having a healer designed to be easy to heal with and easy to do damage with when healing is not required?

I can't even comprehend what's going on. Logic discussions have never gone well in the past, but this is just so far beyond reason that it's actually giving me a headache. I know most people are not game designers, but I really didn't think you needed to be a game designer to understand that making something entirely new from scratch is astronomically more time consuming and expensive vs repurposing something that already exists.

Like, imagine suggesting that you build an entire extension to your house instead of painting an unused room that already exists.

[ASkellington]

I can't even comprehend what's going on. Logic discussions have never gone well in the past, but this is just so far beyond reason that it's actually giving me a headache. I know most people are not game designers, but I really didn't think you needed to be a game designer to understand that making something entirely new from scratch is astronomically more time consuming and expensive vs repurposing something that already exists.

Like, imagine suggesting that you build an entire extension to your house instead of painting an unused room that already exists.

/shrug I mean I was all in the camp of "F no to SGE/new healer" back in Shb lmao. In my eyes we don't need a new healer we need to fix the existing ones. Same applies now.

Cause FFXIV has a design model, none of them fit and they [healers] kinda need to shift towards said design model. Imho it'd have been easier to do w/o SGE. Now with SGE in the mix?

[Renathras]

Do you have any idea how much work it takes to create a new job from scratch? You need to create an all new weapon type and create several weapons across the levels gained through it, new splash art for the job, fully animate and add effects to upwards of 30 different actions, write a job story to introduce the new job and program in all those quests, create a new PVP playstyle for it as well, create new pixel art of it for deep dungeons, design a new icon, need I go on?

NO!

BAD Ty, BAD!

You read what I said. You know better than this. What did I just propose above?

1) Add the Job Stone for Druid/Geomancer.
2) Make it branch from CNJ at level 30 just like how SCH/SMN work.
3) Give it all the current WHM abilities.
4) Give WHM all the changes you want to make to it.

What "new weapon type"? It'd use CNJ arms just like WHM does! SMN and SCH both use the same weapon type! This would, in fact, be even EASIER since WHM and DRU/GEO would use the same exact weapon!
What "new spash art for the Job"? It'd use the CNJ art that YOUR IDEA would have for CNJ, it'd just say "Druid/DRU or Geomancer/GEO" instead of "Conjurer/CNJ".
What "upwards of 30 diffrent actions"? The only NEW ACTIONS that would have to be animated would be those FOR YOUR WHM changes.
What "new PVP playstyle"? It would use the exact one WHM has right now!

The ONLY thing you have here is adding some new Job quests, which could be done in an afternoon and you know it. And honestly, they wouldn't even have to do that other than the quest that gives you the stone. You could even use all the WHM quests and just have them grant both abilities. This is not hard.

Let's not forget that it would also be added at level 80,

BRANCHING.
JOB.

Oh my god, dude, why are you being this difficult?

JOB THAT SPLITS FROM CNJ AT LEVEL 30. How hard is this to understand? You aren't a stupid guy, Ty. This ISN'T hard to understand. Why are you trying so hard not to?

You ARE reading my posts before replying to them, so you know this is a lie. Why are you lying? Are you so afraid to admit I'm right and you just want to be selfish and have all the toys? Are you so afraid that it might be true that you don't want to admit it, but you want to keep doing it?

something you were adamantly against a page prior, yet now you're suddenly in favor of it?

Why are you lying incessantly?

Is it because I've accurately called you out?

I'm literally on record saying IF WHM WAS NOT the Job left simple, SGE WOULD BE THE SECOND CHOICE because starting at level 70 means people picking up "the simple Healer" as an alt or introduction to the role would have to level it the least AND the Job has always existed in the 6.X form.

I've LITERALLY said the EXACT OPPOSITE of this.

I've said WHM makes the MOST sense because of starting at level 1, but SGE makes the SECOND most sense because it would mean the least levels to cap for someone trying to pick up the simple one. It's not the MOST logical choice but is the SECOND most logical. And I've said this more than once. I even said it in the above post that you quoted!

You know what it takes to make CNJ, the healer available at level 1, able to fulfill that role instead?

Yes:

1) Rework the entire Class/Job backend systems to allow a Class to attain abilities and Traits that the Job tied to it does not get.
2) Rework the entire PF/DF system to incorporate Classes - but ONLY CNJ - and treat them like Jobs.
3) Copy the entire WHM toolkit to CNJ.
4) Make entirely new animations for the tooklit since CNJ wouldn't have any Holy element spells.
5) Make entirely new artwork for CNJ.
6) Make an entirely new PVP playstyle for CNJ.
7) Make entirely new animations for WHM's new abilities.

How is that NOT more work than just leaving WHM alone, adding DRU/GEO (as branching from CNJ at 30) and giving them the abilities you want WHM to have?

How is that NOT more work than the slightly more complex adding DRU/GEO (as branching from CNJ at 30), copying WHM's ability set to them, and THEN giving WHM the abilities you want WHM to have?

Doing what you're suggesting - AS I'VE TOLD YOU AND YOU HAVE NOT YET GIVEN A COGENT ARGUMENT AGAINST - is MORE WORK than the alternative. As I said above:

It cannot be that it's "too much work/too complicated" since your own proposal is far more work and far more complicated. That fig leaf won't work.

You copy and paste WHM's abilities over to CNJ,

How is this easier than leaving WHM alone?

Answer: It isn't.

How is this easier than copying WHM's abilities to GEO/DRU?

Answer: It isn't.

What you're insisting is easier IS HARDER. In the BEST case, it's no LESS hard.

The only remotely challenging part about this is ensuring the potencies are balanced, but even that requires a very modest amount of white box testing.

No, these are the remotely challenging parts about this:

1) Rework the entire Class/Job backend systems to allow a Class to attain abilities and Traits that the Job tied to it does not get.
2) Rework the entire PF/DF system to incorporate Classes - but ONLY CNJ - and treat them like Jobs.
3) Copy the entire WHM toolkit to CNJ.
4) Make entirely new animations for the tooklit since CNJ wouldn't have any Holy element spells.
5) Make entirely new artwork for CNJ.
6) Make an entirely new PVP playstyle for CNJ.

ALL OF WHICH would be easier or NO MORE HARD by just adding a new Job stone.

And you KNOW this.

If you genuinely believe it's easier, less complicated, and more efficient to completely rework the Class system, completely copy all of WHM's actions, add new Traits to only the Class it comes from that are flagged by the completely reworked Class system to not pass onto WHM, make all new artwork, CNJ "Job" Class quests up to level 70, an entire new PVP kit for CNJ, a new quing system for CNJ [can you even que into Frontlines as a Class instead of a Job? Going to have to test that out later...], and upend the entire base structure of the current game and THEN changing ALL FOUR of the existing Healer Jobs from that, complete with new balance passes, animations, tuning, and mechanics into the game exclusively for the purpose of creating hard-mode healers for players who can't stand the current system while leaving the bare minimum to all the loyal players who enjoy the current game and would like to keep playing, then I have no idea what you're taking.

FTFY

Surely you can see how insane your idea is now.

Maybe you're the one who can't tolerate the idea of someone enjoying a future WHM that has an engaging DPS rotation

You keep lying.

WHY?

I've STRAIGHT UP SAID BEFORE that if SGE or SCH or AST is left as "the simple one", WHM can have your vaunted "engaging" DPS rotation with my full blessing. You say I can't tolerate it when I've outright said I'd not only tolerate BUT WILLINGLY ACCEPT it.

WHY ARE YOU LYING??

Seriously, it's getting REALLY old.

The better question is why can you not stand the simple DPS rotation players having something YOU don't have? Because it's obvious right now that's what's going on here.

even when you are provided with something that is exactly as you want it to be.

You keep lying.

WHY?

You keep saying this is what I want. Even WHEN I AM TELLING YOU this is NOT what I want. How dense and stubborn are you?

/sigh

Look, I get you don't want to admit that you're selfish, but that's clearly what's going on here. You aren't stupid enough to be making these arguments. You're making them because you don't want to admit it.

You're lying about what I want - insisting I want something I've literally never proposed and which ISN'T what I want, it's what YOU want.

You're ignoring what I said to do and substituting it with something else (that I'd even BE OKAY WITH) so you can insist it's impossible.

You're ignoring - despite me telling you already how much work it would be - how much work your proposal would be.

You're ignoring that the alternative HAS been done before, would work, would actually do WHAT YOU SUPPOSEDLY ARE PITCHING, and would be FAR LESS WORK than what you're pitching. The only thing it would cost you is that there would be ONE Healing Job that YOU don't get. And you can't stand that, can you? Even if it's a Job that doesn't currently exist and likely never will, so you won't get it anyway. You won't even give up something that you will never have, because you're THAT selfish about this. It's borderline insane and is absolutely ridiculous. You're going to the extremist length of even making a Class viable in all game content so you can avoid people who aren't you having a Job that YOU don't get to have (that you could play, mind you, but that you wouldn't want the playstyle of.)

That is insane.

.

It's not about it being harder.

It's not about any of what you said because what you said ignores the key part of the idea: THAT IT WOULD BRANCH FROM CNJ AT LEVEL 30.

Your idea is so much more work than either adding a branching Job to CNJ at level 30 OR adding an entirely new Job. In fact, it WOULD be adding an entirely new Job in all but name - because you don't want to grant the legitimacy of a "Job" to the CLASS that you're giving away.

.

There is no reason. That's the answer. Only one:

Your aversion to adding a new Job THAT BRANCHES FROM CNJ AT LEVEL 30 JUST LIKE HOW SCH AND SMN DO is that that would be a Job that YOU don't get.

Everything I said above: I pegged you right. And your reaching and being intentionally obtuse to TRY and make out like you don't understand when you understand EXACTLY what I'm saying and that it would be easier than what you propose has now proved it. The only reason you won't admit it at this point is desperation to save face and being even more stubborn than I am.

You know better, Ty. I'm disappointed in you. And I'm not going to engage in this childish game of you saying "Gee wilikers, Ren, I don't understand, do you mean THIS? No? What about THIS? Also no? Even though you're saying it, I'm misunderstanding, did you mean THIS? No? Are you sure??" any longer.

You're selfish.
We both know it.
You don't want to give up anything.
You want to get everything.
And you want other people to have nothing, and if you HAVE to give them something, the dregs you don't want anyway, even if it requires completely reworking the game.

It's an insane level of myopia, and I'm done entertaining it.

I've got you pegged. I called you out. We both know it, and you have no defense.
Moving on.

EDIT:

I'm more curious as to why he's so against letting WHM even GROW as a healer.

Like, what entirely is so wrong with having a healer designed to be easy to heal with and easy to do damage with when healing is not required?

THIS IS LITERALLY WHAT WHM IS RIGHT NOW!

It's easy to heal with and easy to do damage with when healing is not required.

I'm the one asking you guys this question:

Seriously, what entirely is so wrong with having a healer designed to be easy to heal with and easy to do damage with when healing is not required? You know like how WHM is right now; easy to heal with and easy to do damage with when healing is not required.

I can't even comprehend what's going on. Logic discussions have never gone well in the past, but this is just so far beyond reason that it's actually giving me a headache. I know most people are not game designers, but I really didn't think you needed to be a game designer to understand that making something entirely new from scratch is astronomically more time consuming and expensive vs repurposing something that already exists.

Are we in the Twilight Zone or something?

You're the one asking for something entirely new, Ty. Good god, you're delusional...did...did I break you? o.O

Like, imagine suggesting that you build an entire extension to your house instead of painting an unused room that already exists.

So why don't YOU take the unused room, then?

Oh RIGHT: Because you're selfish and want all the new extensions to yourself as well as all the good rooms in the house. Got it. Just like I've called you out - correctly, I'm now certain - for.

.

Anyway, yes, I'm done with this thread. Good god.

God damn but this conversation is frustrating.

Ty...don't go full obtuse. NEVER go full obtuse. It doesn't suit you. If you don't want to be called out for your selfishness, just stop being selfish. It's really that simple. And if you want to be selfish, at least have the dignity to own up to it instead of play this "I'm a widdwe child and don't understand what you're saying!!" ridiculousness. It's beneath you. Just own up to the selfishness. If that's who and what you want to be, then embrace it. It's not great, but it's at least honest, where your current farce is not.

[ty_taurus]

NO!

BAD Ty, BAD!

Woof! Bark!

[ForsakenRoe]

Nobody wants to hear about who's pegging who thanks

I'm gonna agree with Ren (shocking), and say we should make Druid the 'simple healer that has very small DPS button count'

[ty_taurus]

Nobody wants to hear about who's pegging who thanks

I'm gonna agree with Ren (shocking), and say we should make Druid the 'simple healer that has very small DPS button count'

[ASkellington]

Seriously, what entirely is so wrong with having a healer designed to be easy to heal with and easy to do damage with when healing is not required? You know [b]like how WHM is right now; easy to heal with and easy to do damage with when healing is not required[b].

Because WHM's current design, the one YOU want to keep

DOES NOT FIT THIS GAME.

It has too many healing tools same as the other ones, and can trade that in for other skills.

Other skills that are just as easy to use along with Glare and Misery.

LIKE I HAVE BEEN ASKING AND YOU KEEP SAYING "NO LEAVE IT ALONE"

To make it as crystal clear as possible because it seems like no matter HOW MANY TIMES I have to repeat myself to you, what I want is for WHM to remain a SIMPLE HEALER while ALSO GAINING just as simple dps options so it isn't just a nuke and a DoT.

Same as every other healer.

Edit: Also hate to be that person but we aren't going to get a branching job because SE hates those like the plague. *rolls eyes* Personally I think they should just get over it and reintroduce it for the other classes.