Do babies play this game.

[Avoidy]

The plot genuinely needs a main character to suffer. Endwalker had that opportunity and Zenos could've been the driving force (imagine if he occupied WoL's body, infiltrated the scions, and then just casually murdered the twins or something), but it was all kinda wasted. Zenos ended up more likable than half the main cast because he doesn't actually hurt anyone we (the player) care about and is charismatic as hell. Main themes revolving around overcoming despair feel like a joke because the characters barely even sit with sadness in this chapter. Even when it seems like someone's died, they return 20 minutes later. Sadness doesn't even get to park its ass on the bench long enough to warm it, let alone fester into true despair.

i really wish we'd scrap most of the scions. They don't have to die necessarily, but just write them out and get someone who actually has a character arc and can possibly die. Zero is a good first step. A lot of people find her annoying, and so do I, but Alphinaud was annoying when he was introduced too. I can see the building blocks forming. If the writers stop dragging their feet with her (she repeats herself endlessly and the hat tipping has run its course ngl) then maybe we'll have another good arc. Inb4 she gets written off as a post-ew filler character though. Because god forbid we change up the scion brand. God forbid we get someone fresh. I swear to god if yshtola dies again in 7.0 and comes back 5 minutes later, my eyes are going to roll so far into the back of my head that I'm gonna look like one of those ahegao hentai bitches

[Iedarus]

The plot genuinely needs a main character to suffer. Endwalker had that opportunity and Zenos could've been the driving force (imagine if he occupied WoL's body, infiltrated the scions, and then just casually murdered the twins or something), but it was all kinda wasted. Zenos ended up more likable than half the main cast because he doesn't actually hurt anyone we (the player) care about and is charismatic as hell. Main themes revolving around overcoming despair feel like a joke because the characters barely even sit with sadness in this chapter. Even when it seems like someone's died, they return 20 minutes later. Sadness doesn't even get to park its ass on the bench long enough to warm it, let alone fester into true despair.

i really wish we'd scrap most of the scions. They don't have to die necessarily, but just write them out and get someone who actually has a character arc and can possibly die. Zero is a good first step. A lot of people find her annoying, and so do I, but Alphinaud was annoying when he was introduced too. I can see the building blocks forming. If the writers stop dragging their feet with her (she repeats herself endlessly and the hat tipping has run its course ngl) then maybe we'll have another good arc. Inb4 she gets written off as a post-ew filler character though. Because god forbid we change up the scion brand. God forbid we get someone fresh. I swear to god if yshtola dies again in 7.0 and comes back 5 minutes later, my eyes are going to roll so far into the back of my head that I'm gonna look like one of those ahegao hentai bitches

Yeah, the writers kind of chickened out of the whole Zenos taking over our body. Would be so interesting to see our WoL going rogue just to see how unstoppable we really are. I know Zenos is meant to serve as that role, but it would drive home the foreshadowing during that scene in 3.0 where Thordan is dying and he sees a black silhouette of us, not to mention it would give the final battle against Zenos more scale. And yes, I know that scene foreshadowed us being Azem but it also made us look like we're incredibly dangerous.

I am in that camp that feels like Y'shtola has overstayed her welcome. Far too many exposition dumping brainiacs in the group, overall, but Y'shtola is especially dull in her personality. Alphinaud and Urianger are actually charming characters, meanwhile Y'shtola only exists because she has "dommy mommy" energy. It's a joke that just drags on for a bit too long. She has her funny moments, too, but imagine replacing her with Alisaie in that scene where you jokingly throw her under the bus for touching the void portal. Replace Y'shtola with Zero and the group will feel much more balanced. Come to think of it, even G'raha Tia was a wasted opportunity. He could have been the character who had a wise grandfather persona but instead he devolved into a fanboy. Both him and Y'shtola just feel like one note fanservice characters.

Edit: Wow I'm surprised I haven't been crucified yet, lol.

[DiaDeem]

The plot genuinely needs a main character to suffer.

More than suffering, what carries a story and its characters is conflict, and the growth that comes with it.

The main issue with the current main cast right now is that all their arcs are pretty much done, so there's not much more growth or conflict they have to go through anymore. Shtola never had much of a conflict. Alphinaud kinda settled by the end of Heavensward. Alisae and Thancred landed in Shadowbringers. Estinien, Graha and Urianger by Endwalker I think. The enjoyment of the story now hinges on how much you enjoy their base personalities, and that's not really what carries a story in the long term. I personally really enjoy Graha and Alisaie. I like them all in their own way, but that's just me, and not enough to carry a plot. Say what you will about Minfilia and Lyse, but both pretty much got retired after their arcs were complete, same for Hien's group. Ryne and Gaius are both gone, and I really enjoyed their stories in Shadowbringers to the point where I'd like more from them, but both their arcs are pretty much done as well. Heck, even the Emet/Hyth/Venat group took more of a backseat once their stories were done. I don't think the Scions need to die, but I think we need a whole new cast. You could give them new arcs too, but that runs the risk of repeating the same beats you had the characters overcome before. Like... I guess we can bring Zero and Krile with us? but we need to meet new companions with new arcs of their own.

[Celine_Aurora]

snip

Gotta say you might have a point, didn't really see it that way.

[SieyaM]

Actually...



Dark enough for you OP???

/thread

Garlemald was by far the most interesting piece of this expansion and I wanted to spend way more time there. As for character deaths, I wouldn't mind it if they didn't do the fake out so much. That's something you can really only get away with once and after that it just becomes tired.

[DiaDeem]

Garlemald was by far the most interesting piece of this expansion and I wanted to spend way more time there.

I enjoyed the sidequests there, but I don't know if they'd be up your alley, or how you felt about them if you've done them. They're more on the hopeful side, and I like that, but some seem to really dislike that from EW. Either way, I'd like more from Garlemald, kinda how we got a rather long follow up to the Domans living in Rev Toll for a while all the way to the rebuild effort at the Doman Enclave.

[Avoidy]

More than suffering, what carries a story and its characters is conflict, and the growth that comes with it.

The main issue with the current main cast right is that their arcs are done, so there's not much more growth or conflict they have to go through anymore. Shtola never had much of a conflict. Alphinaud kinda settled by the end of Heavensward. Alisae and Thancred landed in Shadowbringers. Estinien, Graha and Urianger by Endwalker I think. The enjoyment of the story now hinges on how much you enjoy their base personalities, and that's not really where you wanna be for a story going forward. I personally really enjoy Graha and Alisaie. I like them all in their own way, but that's just me, and not enough to carry a plot. Say what you will about Minfilia and Lyse, but both pretty much got retired after their arcs were complete, and that was better for the story. Hien and Yugiri are pretty much retired as well. Ryne and Gaius are both gone, and I really enjoyed them in Shadowbringers to the point where I'd like more from them, but both their arcs as well are pretty much done. Heck, even the Emet/Hyth/Venat group took more of a backseat once their stories were done. I don't think the Scions need to die, but I think we need a whole new cast. Like... I guess we can bring Zero and Krile with us? but we need to meet new companions with arcs of their own.

I agree. Main reason I said suffering and not conflict is because, like you mentioned, the conflict for these characters is basically finished. Now that they're established and generally liked though, there's plenty of room for these characters to suffer, preferably at the hands of a villain we're meant to despise. But we can't even have that. Instead it's as you said, "the enjoyment of the story now hinges on how much you enjoy their base personalities," and that's a tall order imo.

[Irenia]

Suffering for suffering's sake just so a villain can be hateable is... eh. Like good stories can involve suffering, but putting it as the stated goal just feels like edge.

[TheMightyMollusk]

Time for yet another "why Endwalker sucks" thread, huh?

[Avoidy]

Suffering for suffering's sake just so a villain can be hateable is... eh. Like good stories can involve suffering, but putting it as the stated goal just feels like edge.

Nah I didn't mean it as the primary goal, more just... It's a means to an end. From that suffering, you can create something else like more internal character conflict, or motivation for other characters to act in unpredictable ways, or growth for characters who've been neglected but now have to respond to what's just happened. A lot of possibilities open up if you're not afraid to let your characters struggle and suffer a bit. And the drama is captivating, because the audience has been given time to like these characters.

Seriously, the scions as they are now just do nothing but preach platitudes about friendship and overcoming adversity. Their internal issues or flaws that they wrestled with resolved years ago. They have nothing left to do but exist. They're the food equivalent of white bread that's been left out overnight. They'd be more interesting if you toasted them or ripped them up and put them in some soup or something. Do something to these people, otherwise just write them out and give us someone else. Anyone else.