"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

[Irenia]

Normally I would be down for this approach/interpretation but there's an obstruction to this being the go to answer and that's the speed of communication. During a pull you often don't actually have time to put out a quick message or start a discussion, there's just too much going on. That's even more a factor if someone is playing on console and only has the onscreen keyboard. If we had voice comms it would be different but that's just not the case.

I've grown more accustomed to using non chat based communication of intention by just viewing what people do. Are people moving past me? Are they using sprint? Did someone grab an extra pack? This group/person probably wants to go faster. This also works in reverse for slower pulls. I've actually had a healer use rescue to pull me backwards to prevent me from pulling more and that message was loud and clear of what they wanted.

I don't think people are trying to be rude by just doing things but rather it's just the practical answer.

This is actually kind of cool, given the limitations of the platform.

[Kolaina]

I played FFXI extensively before they raised the cap to 99. Generally speaking, in a "pull-to-camp" scenario, the tank was not the puller. This was due to the design of the game. The puller would go off to find the next mob when the pulled mob was getting low in HP. They would stay in range for the experience while trying to bring in the next mob.

This required communication within the group (healers have enough MP, tank has provoke/flash/etc ready to grab hate) while also being aware of the experience chain pull timer.

This game doesn't have a "pull-to-camp" type setup in most scenarios. It is a bum rush as far as you can where most other jobs can't absorb the incoming damage long enough to make sense to have the DPS be out in front. Besides, let's say the DPS did run through the mobs... and starts single targeting one of them... then the healer drops a large heal on the DPS before they die. Now we have 6 mobs on the healer and 1 on the DPS and 1 on the other DPS... that's likely 3 GCDs by the tank to get them under control. All the while... AOEs do better.

It just isn't efficient to have DPS pull in the vast majority of content available in this game.

When it comes to toxic behavior, there are times when the tank not pulling wall-to-wall is just due to inexperience. That isn't toxic. But the response to how the tank is pulling by pulling over the tank is always toxic.

Communicate by words instead of toxic behavior.

Your hypothetical scenario isn’t always an issue. Generally dps pull 1 pack, not 2 in every instance I see it. A dps is easy to keep alive vs 4 mobs. If I, as a healer get heal aggro in that pack it actually makes it easier to keep everyone alive as the incoming damage is split.

There have been many successful runs in my experience where we didn’t even have a tank. They aren’t always necessary. Usually they are just a convenience as they allow for multiple packs of mobs to be pulled. If they aren’t pulling more than a pack, I’d rather have a 3rd dps

[MinOfForest]

When it comes to toxic behavior, there are times when the tank not pulling wall-to-wall is just due to inexperience. That isn't toxic. But the response to how the tank is pulling by pulling over the tank is always toxic.

Communicate by words instead of toxic behavior.

This. I have a friend who's relatively inexperienced with MMOs in general and really wants to level their tanking classes. Every dungeon we go into, there is SOMEONE who feels like they need to pull more. Even if he's pulling two groups together it's not enough. Same with when this same person is trying to heal. He's new, he's not used to watching health bars or knowing when to use a small/large heal or watch tank's CDs. So he's trying to watch those and get better at healing, but now there are three different people with aggro and damage is going everywhere. Instant anxiety; stops queueing as a healer.

Unless you're in a group with people you know, pulling ahead is just a dbag move. You want to move faster, you tank it.

[Jojoya]

Regardless of arguments about which side is right and which side is wrong, do we have any evidence that players have actually been banned for YPYT?

Granted SE won't discuss action against player accounts so it wouldn't be verifiable evidence but I'd settle for someone saying "yes, I was banned for not picking up mobs that another player in the party pulled after warning them not to pull, this is what SE said to me when I got the ban".

Because honestly, most of this seems to be people blowing smoke around when there is no actual fire.

[Kolaina]

Regardless of arguments about which side is right and which side is wrong, do we have any evidence that players have actually been banned for YPYT?

Granted SE won't discuss action against player accounts so it wouldn't be verifiable evidence but I'd settle for someone saying "yes, I was banned for not picking up mobs that another player in the party pulled after warning them not to pull, this is what SE said to me when I got the ban".

Because honestly, most of this seems to be people blowing smoke around when there is no actual fire.

I’ve been banned. Back when hullbreaker isle was the new dungeon. So yes, it’s bannable as a refusal to participate

[Jojoya]

I’ve been banned. Back when hullbreaker isle was the new dungeon. So yes, it’s bannable as a refusal to participate

Could you share with us everything that happened? Considering your general attitude in this thread, I'm sure you can understand that I doubt the ban was for YPYT.

[Kolaina]

Could you share with us everything that happened?

Simply put, dps we’re pulling, it annoyed me as tp was still a thing and spamming tomahawk and overpower would drain tp getting aggro off them. I let them tank, telling them I’m the tank let me do my job, you do yours. 1 week ban

[Renalt]

Simply put, dps we’re pulling, it annoyed me as tp was still a thing and spamming tomahawk and overpower would drain tp getting aggro off them. I let them tank, telling them I’m the tank let me do my job, you do yours. 1 week ban

If I remember correctly yeah spamming your aoe "aggro holding" abilities WAS VERY costly and if the pull was started by DPS then you had a much harder time taking it back. Like you can do it once or twice and then you had to do a balancing act with your TP.

You probably got banned for "telling them how to play" when their actions was "telling you how to play". They submitted the report so they took action against you.

The whole situation is lame. They ban for the dumbest of things.

[Kolaina]

If I remember correctly yeah spamming your aoe "aggro holding" abilities WAS VERY costly and if the pull was started by DPS then you had a much harder time taking it back. Like you can do it once or twice and then you had to do a balancing act with your TP.

You probably got banned for "telling them how to play" when their actions was "telling you how to play". They submitted the report so they took action against you.

The whole situation is lame. They ban for the dumbest of things.

No it was refusal to participate. Said do in the gm report to me. I’m at work right now, if I remember when I get home late tonight I will post the gm message

[TaleraRistain]

I played FFXI extensively before they raised the cap to 99. Generally speaking, in a "pull-to-camp" scenario, the tank was not the puller. This was due to the design of the game. The puller would go off to find the next mob when the pulled mob was getting low in HP. They would stay in range for the experience while trying to bring in the next mob.

This required communication within the group (healers have enough MP, tank has provoke/flash/etc ready to grab hate) while also being aware of the experience chain pull timer.

This game doesn't have a "pull-to-camp" type setup in most scenarios. It is a bum rush as far as you can where most other jobs can't absorb the incoming damage long enough to make sense to have the DPS be out in front. Besides, let's say the DPS did run through the mobs... and starts single targeting one of them... then the healer drops a large heal on the DPS before they die. Now we have 6 mobs on the healer and 1 on the DPS and 1 on the other DPS... that's likely 3 GCDs by the tank to get them under control. All the while... AOEs do better.

It just isn't efficient to have DPS pull in the vast majority of content available in this game.

EQ had this setup too and something that people forget when they bring up those games is that (can't speak for XI) the pulling classes had skills that made sure they would survive the pull. That's why they were the puller. Rangers and druids had snare so they could run quickly away from the mobs and the tank was waiting for them to arrive to quickly take aggro. Monks could feign death at the tank's feet to drop all aggro so the tank had no issue picking it up. XIV doesn't have the same setup. We're not pulling to a camp. The tank needs to grab aggro quickly as the team runs through the dungeon and the dps don't have those same tools that make them effective at pulling. So it's been a natural progression in MMOs as they've moved away from having crowd control that it's most efficient if the one that needs to maintain all the aggro is the one to gain it first.