Removal of Positionals

[ZiraZ]

I'll just say it again, people that like gigantic boss hitboxes and/or want positionals removed have basically zero taste, hate fun and they're are as bad as the people that use the combo plugin because it's just a matter of time until they hit you with the "positionals don't even matter anyways" argument which is basically the same as the "combos don't matter" argument, then they go and install the combo plugin under the same breath.
If you don't like having to deal with positionals then you can simple play the other 6 dps that don't have to do them, people need to stop trying to change this last remnant of fun only available in 5 jobs, some could argue 4.
STOP ASKING FOR REMOVALS
at this rate we're all gonna end up as physical range with infinite range, same exact dps, zero raidbuffs, and a moba sized action list.
SE DOESN'T add things in return after they remove something, there is no benefit removing anything, there will be no payoff or new mechanics, just an empty kaiten flavored void.

[Ransu]

I'll just say it again, people that like gigantic boss hitboxes and/or want positionals removed have basically zero taste.

I'll give you the hitbox thing because it actually matters in terms of fight mechanics and figuring out ways to maintain uptime optimally, but the take on positionals is pretty dumb. Realistically positionals add nothing to the game. Sitting at the corner of the circle and moving 1 inch left or right is not skillful, its not fun and its completely pointless considering whenever there is a mechanic that disrupts the ability to do that we have true north to compensate it making the entire design pointless. If true north didn't exist you would have a point, but as it stands positionals are meaningless and add nothing to the combat which is why I really don't care if they stay or go. They don't add or take away any kind of difficulty, so if they stay then whatever. If they go, nothing changes other than the fact a spot on my hotbar opens up.

I personally just don't get why people like them. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Do people not sit at the corner and intentionally make things harder by going all the way to the flank/rear instead of using the edges of the positinals? That's the only thing I can think of because, again, positionals do nothing for combat.

Monk should have kept all of its positionals. There's no reason why it shouldn't have, there's no problem having only one job in the entire game with that playstyle for the people who enjoyed it.

People against positionals don't even goddamn play Monk anyway.

I level up mnk alongside my sam every expansion. I've never felt that positionals make mnk unique. I want mnk to have more things to do like near the end of the ShB expansion where the opener was fun as hell over worrying about pointless positionals. Make mnk faster and give me more things to press(more oGCD's) and more CD's to manage. That is way more interesting than stepping 1 inch to the left or the right in a game where the boss is static 90% of the time and the other 10% true north is always available.

[UkcsAlias]

Realistically positionals add nothing to the game.

They add a system that for well coordinated teams can matter quite a lot on their output and therefor measure of skill. Its not just the melee dps to work with this here, but a combination. Sure, for most players its just anoying to have such systems, but for the very skilled, its these systems that do matter.

The real problem is that there arent enough positionals, and that due to latency a lot of the positional stuff is unreliable. If the game would properly register actions at 60fps and show players that same feedback, these positionals could become a much better system. So it might not only be the angle of attacking, for a ranged dps it could be distance of attacking. They could even have made certain bosses have a vulnerability angle.

Skill is generaly measured by being able to do more tasks more efficiently in a game (this even includes shooters where more tasks means position on the battlefield, and efficiency is accuracy). Removing positionals would be a very bad thing.

[VentVanitas]

I level up mnk alongside my sam every expansion. I've never felt that positionals make mnk unique. I want mnk to have more things to do like near the end of the ShB expansion where the opener was fun as hell over worrying about pointless positionals. Make mnk faster and give me more things to press(more oGCD's) and more CD's to manage. That is way more interesting than stepping 1 inch to the left or the right in a game where the boss is static 90% of the time and the other 10% true north is always available.

No thanks! I'll take positionals over hit and forget oGCDs like old Elixir Field/Tornado Kick because 5.4 MNK was dogwater.

[Ransu]

No thanks! I'll take positionals over hit and forget oGCDs like old Elixir Field/Tornado Kick because 5.4 MNK was dogwater.

So you like boring and slow combat? Because that is what current mnk is with the majority of its actions being the standard combos as all their oGCD's got moved to the blitz attacks. Moving around with positionals to mask that isn't a good thing. oGCD's are also not "hit and forget." If you feel that way about them then you're not doing proper rotation management and are just mashing buttons.

[Powercow]

Realistically positionals add nothing to the game. Sitting at the corner of the circle and moving 1 inch left or right is not skillful, its not fun and its completely pointless considering whenever there is a mechanic that disrupts the ability to do that we have true north to compensate it making the entire design pointless. If true north didn't exist you would have a point, but as it stands positionals are meaningless and add nothing to the combat which is why I really don't care if they stay or go. They don't add or take away any kind of difficulty, so if they stay then whatever. If they go, nothing changes other than the fact a spot on my hotbar opens up.

So during a combo, you have to hit a button to do additional damage that's in addition to oGCDs and your GCDs, that sometimes require you to know the fight in advance to know to pre-position in case the boss turns or has a mechanic where certain areas are inaccessible, where a skilled player can greed out extra damage if they're willing to be risky and/or knowledgeable.

And that somehow adds nothing to the gameplay? What DOES add gameplay then? Certainly not GCDs or oGCD attacks, certainly not cooldowns. Because those have either the same amount of requirements to use optimally or less. So what's even left at that point? How are positionals not the purest form of actual gameplay? (Meaningful feedback notwithstanding. Make whiffing a positional do less than half of its damage and add a pathetic sound effect and I guarantee people will look at them more favorably as a gameplay mechanic.)

And yeah, remove True North. It was a stupid skill to begin with and it should never have existed.

[Ransu]

So during a combo, you have to hit a button to do additional damage that's in addition to oGCDs and your GCDs, that sometimes require you to know the fight in advance to know to pre-position in case the boss turns or has a mechanic where certain areas are inaccessible, where a skilled player can greed out extra damage if they're willing to be risky and/or knowledgeable.

And that somehow adds nothing to the gameplay? What DOES add gameplay then? Certainly not GCDs or oGCD attacks, certainly not cooldowns. Because those have either the same amount of requirements to use optimally or less. So what's even left at that point? How are positionals not the purest form of actual gameplay? (Meaningful feedback notwithstanding. Make whiffing a positional do less than half of its damage and add a pathetic sound effect and I guarantee people will look at them more favorably as a gameplay mechanic.)

And yeah, remove True North. It was a stupid skill to begin with and it should never have existed.

Here's the problem. Remove true north and now you bring in another problem which is restriction on how the boss can move. There are some fights where a boss essentially goes outside of the arena and you cannot attack the rear or just the entire fact that a boss will randomly spin. This is why true north was added to begin with, so either you keep a boss static and have it basically never move, or you make the ring on the boss change depending on where it is at so that positionals are disabled when they go to an area that a flank/rear attack isn't possible.

So yes, positionals as they are now are beyond pointless, and making changes to make missing positionals more punishing would heavily limit boss fight designs. The better alternative is to remove positionals which allows the team for more creative boss fights. We're already seeing that anyways with a lot of boss fights being full circles and disabling the need for positionals.

I personally see zero positives to positionals. They do not create any form of good engagement.

[ZiraZ]

Here's the problem. Remove true north and now you bring in another problem which is restriction on how the boss can move. There are some fights where a boss essentially goes outside of the arena and you cannot attack the rear or just the entire fact that a boss will randomly spin. This is why true north was added to begin with, so either you keep a boss static and have it basically never move, or you make the ring on the boss change depending on where it is at so that positionals are disabled when they go to an area that a flank/rear attack isn't possible.

So yes, positionals as they are now are beyond pointless, and making changes to make missing positionals more punishing would heavily limit boss fight designs. The better alternative is to remove positionals which allows the team for more creative boss fights. We're already seeing that anyways with a lot of boss fights being full circles and disabling the need for positionals.

I personally see zero positives to positionals. They do not create any form of good engagement.

Current fights are the opposite of being creative so I guess that completely disproves the entire point.
STOP ASKING TO REMOVE THINGS THEY WONT GIVE BACK ANYTHING IN RETURN

[UkcsAlias]

I personally see zero positives to positionals. They do not create any form of good engagement.

Thats just you then... and the recommendation is to not play a melee dps then. There are multiple jobs for this very reason.

Positionals are one of the best features because they enable skill diffirences to be shown through numbers. More skill on a melee dps means more damage. Even if you cannot see the numbers, you can still notice a boss getting killed just that little bit faster (which on savage/ultimate means more enrage timer remaining).

You are asking for something on a similar level to removing headshots for a sniper in a shooter. A weapon type thats all about accuracy. The melee dps in this game is just like that, and therefor has those gimmicks.

The moment positionals are removed, you essentialy removed the entire need for the melee dps job to exist in its entirety. The ranged dps damage penalty at that point becomes irrelevant since a melee dps has the same uptime (otherwise you can remove ranged dps entirely). Positionals enable situations in which melee dpses shine, and situations in which they dont. But on average, they are just balanced.

Variety in a game is good. Otherwise just keep playing de_dust2... as then you know nothing will ever change.

[Ransu]

Positionals are one of the best features because they enable skill diffirences to be shown through numbers.

Sitting on the corner of a circle and moving 1inch to the left or right is hardly what I'd call "skill." Skill is maintaining your rotation, resource management etc... There is zero skill involved in positionals and they add zero engagement to a fight. They are completely pointless. If they stay, they stay, if they don't, they don't. I don't really care either way, but pretending they add anything to the combat is laughable.

You are asking for something on a similar level to removing headshots for a sniper in a shooter. A weapon type thats all about accuracy. The melee dps in this game is just like that, and therefor has those gimmicks.

lmao what? You seriously tried to compared a skilled precision shot to mindlessly stepping to the left or right of the corner circle?

The moment positionals are removed, you essentialy removed the entire need for the melee dps job to exist in its entirety.

*looks at other mmos like swtor and wow*

Ya your statement here is kind of dumb.