Length MSQ from all the expansions - it is getting insane

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

Woosh the point over your head

Idk man, Flavored Milk is pretty good, even if I don't drink a whole lot of it.
But even then I can still taste it and give an opinion

[Atelier-Bagur]

ok decided to come back to this thread and skimming through the last few pages and now we're talking about milk?

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

ok decided to come back to this thread and skimming through the last few pages and now we're talking about milk?

I think its about Gearing Alt Jobs with BiS and because I dont do savage or Ultimates I have no room to talk when all I said was that I agree that its up to you to gear your Jobs, and unless there is some force-field stopping you, there is no reason you cant gear your Job..
Then some analogy about flavors of Milk and being Lactose. Even though you can still drink the milk, just your body will have a weird reaction.

IDK, these forums are weird sometimes.
But they are never dull even if its the same people.

[Atelier-Bagur]

I think its about Gearing Alt Jobs with BiS and because I dont do savage or Ultimates I have no room to talk when all I said was that I agree that its up to you to gear your Jobs, and unless there is some force-field stopping you, there is no reason you cant gear your Job..
Then some analogy about flavors of Milk and being Lactose. Even though you can still drink the milk, just your body will have a weird reaction.

IDK, these forums are weird sometimes.
But they are never dull even if its the same people.

What bothers me is understanding where the hardcore mentality is even coming from wanting to gear up multiple roles when (checks savage raid min.ilv) the current savage raid tier which is the only hardcore combat endgame raiding content we have (sides Ults but thats not the case) has an entry of ilv.610. BiS isnt necessary to clear these fights, and if we're talking about wanting better gear anyway, may I remind people that due to FFXIV's consistent patch cycle the window relevancy for that gear is so short because by the time the next patch comes, the discrepency of ilvs is triviliazed due to the catch up gear you get by then?

There is no reason why you would feel that you need to bis multiple roles when the current raiding content is clearable with the bare minimum. If they added another raid tier where ilv.630 is required for entry then YES I can 100% get behind people's frustrations with gearing because you would want to have multiple roles accessible to you for the prog. But with how endgame raiding content is currently handled? savage gear is almost trivial.

This game needs better raid progression, that should be the focus of the discussion.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

What bothers me is understanding where the hardcore mentality is even coming from wanting to gear up multiple roles when (checks savage raid min.ilv) the current savage raid tier which is the only hardcore combat endgame raiding content we have (sides Ults but thats not the case) has an entry of ilv.610. BiS isnt necessary to clear these fights, and if we're talking about wanting better gear anyway, may I remind people that due to FFXIV's consistent patch cycle the window relevancy for that gear is so short because by the time the next patch comes, the discrepency of ilvs is triviliazed due to the catch up gear you get by then?

There is no reason why you would feel that you need to bis multiple roles when the current raiding content is clearable with the bare minimum. If they added another raid tier where ilv.630 is required for entry then YES I can 100% get behind people's frustrations with gearing because you would want to have multiple roles accessible to you for the prog. But with how endgame raiding content is currently handled? savage gear is almost trivial.

This game needs better raid progression, that should be the focus of the discussion.

Its refreshing to see more level-headed takes that actually make sense sometimes

[SaltyDaddy]

Man, back when I was HARDCORE into this game, back on SB I geared EVERYTHING.....once I got to ShB, I realized how dumb that was.
Im still going to level every job, because Actually playing the jobs is better to learn what you like/dont like. And pick a Tank, Healer and/or Dps you like and just focus on that. Unless you wanna mix it up.



They aren't wrong. "Its on YOU"
But how are you gonna sit here and say you can't gear a class....when you very clearly can? Im confused by alot of your replies to people....

When was you hardcore into the game again? Dunno. Forever hardcore in gray? Cmon. You are starting being really annoying. First, you take steam graphs as totally not represantive of userbase, without even knowing what that data means, and now you trying to act like you know how it is to gear savage character, when you dont. Please stop talking about stuff you have no idea about. Go touch some grass. YoshiP will not give you pats on head for defending bs systems.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

When was you hardcore into the game again? Dunno. Forever hardcore in gray? Cmon. You are starting being really annoying. First, you take steam graphs as totally not represantive of userbase, without even knowing what that data means, and now you trying to act like you know how it is to gear savage character, when you dont. Please stop talking about stuff you have no idea about. Go touch some grass. YoshiP will not give you pats on head for defending bs systems.

What have I defended again?...Sorry I need a reminder. Otherwise this just sounds like "I dont like you because you dont agree with me"
I was hardcore into the game for 7 years straight. If I remember correctly I came in just 2 patches after Thordan.
Correction: Steam does not represent the WHOLE playerbase, repeating myself because it sounds like I need to: The playerbase also plays on the Official Launcher and on Playstation consoles - PS4 & PS5. Steam charts do not factor these people, and we do not have those numbers (from what I know). That is a very basic fact that people I guess want to ignore for some reason. And my argument is: nothing is stopping you from gearing your class. People should really try to actually read what Im saying, or at least ask for clarification.

I dont play this game hardcore anymore my dude, I have other life obligations, I have a Job, play other games, and do other things in my life. I dont need YoshiP-Senpai to notice me for anything. Its just a videogame.
So please take the low-tier insult and put it in the trash. Its garbage.

[Amenara]

What bothers me is understanding where the hardcore mentality is even coming from wanting to gear up multiple roles when (checks savage raid min.ilv) the current savage raid tier which is the only hardcore combat endgame raiding content we have (sides Ults but thats not the case) has an entry of ilv.610. BiS isnt necessary to clear these fights, and if we're talking about wanting better gear anyway, may I remind people that due to FFXIV's consistent patch cycle the window relevancy for that gear is so short because by the time the next patch comes, the discrepency of ilvs is triviliazed due to the catch up gear you get by then?

There is no reason why you would feel that you need to bis multiple roles when the current raiding content is clearable with the bare minimum. If they added another raid tier where ilv.630 is required for entry then YES I can 100% get behind people's frustrations with gearing because you would want to have multiple roles accessible to you for the prog. But with how endgame raiding content is currently handled? savage gear is almost trivial.

This game needs better raid progression, that should be the focus of the discussion.

I know you said besides ultimates but they are essentially the post savage raid tier which requires you to have pretty much BiS if not BiS to complete. If your argument is you only need to meet the minimum ilvl to do savage the question I have is why bother doing savage after your first clear then? Sure you might like doing the fights but most do it so they can gear their characters and progress them as well as get them ready for the next savage tier. FF14 is an MMO with no horizontal progression system so there is only one way to progress characters and that is by getting the new BiS through savage and tomes. I think that should be the real focus, finding more ways to acquire BiS or almost BiS outside of taking months to gear one role through savage and tomes whether it be through making criterion dungeons content worth doing by having it drop in between gear (ie ilvl 625) or making alliance raids drop higher ilvl gear as another source of alternate gearing for savage raider alt jobs since they have to wait almost 8 months for the raid tier's gear lockout to be removed.

That being said I am someone who doesn't care about my own gearing since I don't do content where gear really makes a difference.

[Atelier-Bagur]

I know you said besides ultimates but they are essentially the post savage raid tier which requires you to have pretty much BiS if not BiS to complete. If your argument is you only need to meet the minimum ilvl to do savage the question I have is why bother doing savage after your first clear then? Sure you might like doing the fights but most do it so they can gear their characters and progress them as well as get them ready for the next savage tier. FF14 is an MMO with no horizontal progression system so there is only one way to progress characters and that is by getting the new BiS through savage and tomes.

You must've not read my whole post because at the end there I gave the counter-argument in that by the next patch, the catch up gear available (via tomestones, raids, dungeons, augments etc) will be more than enough to get ready for the next savage raid cycle. They never increase each raid's entry ilv. Literally I have all of my jobs currently at ilv.610 and above and I got that without touching a single Abyssos savage raid. This is how you obviously get entry to do Savage and the items are a mix between the normal raid drops, crafted and tomestone gear. The entry for Abyssos was ilv.600 which doesnt take much time or effort to get to at all and the last 2 savage raids are ilv.610 which again, this is already gotten by non-savage gear anyway.

The thing that hardcore raiders are missing is the obvious lack of meaningful progression because of how totally lax and easy it is to get into and clear the raids. The BiS fallacy is just to get a slightly bigger advantage on a fight you can already clear at the bare minimum.

Like I said, if you want FFXIV's raiding to be more meaningful and lasting they need to introduce more battle content where it requires you to be BiS in order to do em and not just involve it around Ultimates which come twice in the post-expansion patch cycle (and quickly lose relevance once that ilv discrepency comes during the next patch).

The game needs a Mythic+ system...well without some of its terrible affix and keystones things they have going on in WoW.

[Shougun]

Still imagine that at some point they're going to create an alternate start as that, imo, is one of the most logical yet 'stable' solutions to this. An expansion or two ago I can understand some people's eyebrows raising at skips being a default offering (at least once), but I cannot foresee it being maintainable concept on and on. If they are as they said 10 more years rick and mor-- FFXIV then lets say if each expansion is an average of 60 hours, with an expansion every 2 years (2013 ARR release, HW 2015, StB 2017, ShB 2019, EW 2021, +10 more years = 2023, 2025, 2027, 2029, 2031), that totals approximately 600 hours (likely more, given you're probably not going to always be doing just the MSQ).

To put that into context, that would be like 100%'ing Skyrim almost 3 times (approx. 232 hours per 100%). Or being able to watch all of One Piece currently (1000 episodes), and then enough time to spare to also watch all of Friends.

For real world example my wife who was big into the One Piece comics when she asked how many episodes were out when we were talking about starting to watch it again was like "LOL, no- we'll watch something else" and that's media content that you could technically just jump into and mostly be fine. Books, movies, and honestly most games, have theoretical or literal 'alternate starts' all the time, like reading the wrong Dune first.. might help to read them in a certain order but people do it all the time out of order, or start an episode randomly on TV, especially before all this on the demand internet streaming, and then watch older stuff when it re-aired. Most MMOs that are large are doing similar things, though usually with potions which I feel are very bad. Massive series games are similar in that they come in pieces.

I like FFXIV and I think it is great, but if you wiped my mind of everything, and I had to pay a monthly fee, I legitimately do not think I would attempt to engage with the game if you told me I'd be locked from a lot of content I was interested in until I did x% of 600 hours. Smartly FFXIV does offer many expansions of content for free without a sub... which would potentially take a hard no into a "I might try it sometimes, but I'll probably not dedicate a lot of focus to it unless it grips me as the best game in the world".. but given the nice free expansions you can actually low commitment play the game, that said I don't believe such an idea entirely alleviates all the of the hesitancy or concerns that begets such a large wall either, and ultimately I feel the alternate type of entry is going to just be one of the most obvious solutions. Also reminding that 60 is really generous and it's probably at least 25% more than that, given that you will be probably doing some other content here and there (Gold Saucer, events, friends, gil making, DoL, Doh, whatever).

Now taking a fair step back we are not in 2032 are we? ... Are we..? COVID Part.. 5.... Mask.. Quarenti--- Anyway, we're more like 250 - 500 currently (pace dependent on person, I imagine most around 300 hours). The range also given the likely new expansion, but also because technically 60 hours per expansion is generous as mentioned before.

I say alternate entry because I think skip potions are Dodo Dumpster Fires of a means of being an intro to the game, just because you need to move someone deeper into the game doesn't mean "no intro"- I still strongly believe intros are really important. Also disregarding any lore breaking suggestions people counter with because why in Thal's name would that be suggested as a solution... like when I read that as a response I swear people are trying to make a strawman.. DONT do that, it might have some FFVII Remake vibes temporarily but whatever.. it's still very possible given someone smart enough to weave things back into a /single/ strand (Even the lengths FFVII Remake are too far and more of a joke suggestion, just conk the WoL on the head or something lol).

It's still true you could dig heels into the ground, I just don't see the point of it over time. 2 Expansions ago an alternate start would have been aggressive measures, at this next expansion I would call it a logical decision, 2 - 4 expansions from now (6.0) and not having one and I'd seriously doubt the vast majority of people make it through the free expansion and both admire the dedication to not budging on the vision and be amused at the decision and imagine it is directly causing very tangible burden and damage to the game. So I generally doubt there wont be some change in the next expansion or two, but at least there is the free expansions :3