BLM DPS

[Turtledeluxe]

None of what I have said is based on my feelings.

Dropping SAM a tiny bit to make it more in line with BLM does not mean it suddenly becomes more useless than all the other melee. That sounds to me like feelings. I am pointing out that you are arguing this based on feelings, because earlier you implied doing this is somehow bad and I think it's funny that you are doing it now. Yes, I understand that melee and casters are separate and compete against their respective roles. That doesn't explain why SAM bringing 1-2% less DPS to the fight somehow ruins the game or makes it less useful than other melee than it already is as a selfish DPS. In the same way, if you nerfed BLM right now it would still deal significantly more damage than the other casters.

These are selfish DPS classes. They should do the same DPS. It's like a subclass of DPS classes that needs to be taken into consideration, or else you will continuously get topics like this one. If you don't want to nerf SAM then buff BLM and deal with the other casters crying about it. Again-- those are feelings. If bringing the selfish DPS classes in line with one another requires all sort of other considerations that update other jobs, then they should do that. I'm not arguing against that.

I don't buy your theory that BLM having competitive DPS with SAM (whether that means nerfing SAM or buffing BLM) suddenly makes BLM the most popular class over. Imo, that's why the BLM gameplay is what it is. It isn't for everyone. As far as making other casters more valuable aside from maybe RDM I just don't see it. I'd also say that if the modeling that you use requires all kinds of asterisks and explanations, then why do we use it? Imo players should be able to join the game, and have a certain expectation of their class. Right now it's more like "this caster is harder to use than other classes, but it does top DPS, well except for a SAM, because well, melee DPS is as such that SAM needs to be sky high".

I see no reason why a new player whose priority is playing top DPS wouldn't choose a SAM over a caster. Why would you willfully pick the more inefficient one? "ah because a new player will surely consult with the TOP logs and understand it's because they're a caster". Nonsense. You're basically counting on aethetics or ranged gameplay to draw people to BLM and imo that's pretty sad when the game could just be fair.

[Mikey_R]

Dropping SAM a tiny bit to make it more in line with BLM does not mean it suddenly becomes more useless than all the other melee.

These are selfish DPS classes.

I don't buy your theory that BLM having competitive DPS with SAM (whether that means nerfing SAM or buffing BLM) suddenly makes BLM the most popular class over. Imo, that's why the BLM gameplay is what it is. It isn't for everyone. As far as making other casters more valuable aside from maybe RDM I just don't see it. I'd also say that if the modeling that you use requires all kinds of asterisks and explanations, then why do we use it?

I see no reason why a new player whose priority is playing top DPS wouldn't choose a SAM over a caster.

Reducing SAM damage makes it less desirable compared to the other melee DPS, so it is picked less and FYI, 1%-2% is actually quite a large difference in this context.

Yes, they are selfish DPS classes, so is Machinist, should Machinist also do competitive damage alongside SAM?

Just because you do not buy the theory does not mean the theory is invalid. However, I never said it would be the most popular, it would however become more desirable because it brings more to a fight than the other casters. As for how FFlogs displays data, yes, there are caveats and nuances in how the data is displayed, this is why it is important to understand the pros and cons of each data representation as nothing is going to show the whole picture in a clear light. Welcome to the world of balancing DPS. If you have a better model to accurately represent what each job brings to a fight, feel free to let everyone know.

I could say the same about any job. If we were having this same discussion but SAM and BLM were switched, why should I play SAM when BLM is higher. The argument for making BLM stronger (or reducing SAM) is not a good one. If all they care about is doing the most DPS, then they do not care which job it is.

Also, as a reference, Ultimate fights tend to be very skewed in measuring DPS, in any sort of way. With so many phase transitions and therefore downtime, it tends to favour jobs that can build resources when there is no target present. To give some examples, BLM can prepare 3 Umbral Hearts and have Polyglot charging up, SAM can build Kenki and Meditation stacks, Monk can generate Chakra, however, Ninja cannot generate Ninki, DNC gets no Four Fold feathers etc. Generally, when people look up job balance, they tend to look at the latest Savage tier as those fights have far far fewer downtime phases and so that advantage is minimised.

[Turtledeluxe]

Reducing SAM damage makes it less desirable compared to the other melee DPS

And not having utility makes BLM less desirable in various cases. And no I am not trying to go back to the "should BLM have more utility" debate.

Yes, they are selfish DPS classes, so is Machinist, should Machinist also do competitive damage alongside SAM?

Why should it not? What is the point of a class being a selfish dps if it does not bring the most dps possible? You may as well not even call it that. SAM is selfish dps-- BLM and MCH are just selfish (in cases where they do not compete with SAM).

it brings more to a fight than the other casters.

In your opinion.

I could say the same about any job. If we were having this same discussion but SAM and BLM were switched, why should I play SAM when BLM is higher. The argument for making BLM stronger (or reducing SAM) is not a good one. If all they care about is doing the most DPS, then they do not care which job it is.

I haven't said BLM should be higher than SAM, I said they should be equivalent. But you keep painting it this way to make me look bad, which is fine. My posts are there for people to read. You aren't changing my commentary lol. You've done this several times and I keep correcting you. And one more reminder that selfish DPS-- all they bring to the fight is DPS. Regardless of what the game has done with them historically, I am saying that (imo) selfish DPS should bring top DPS to the fight when played optimally and should all be (more than other classes) challenging to play. That would make a lot of sense to me. You bring up MCH and it's funny because don't MCH's complain, like a lot?

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-for-Machinist

Also, as a reference, Ultimate fights tend to be very skewed in measuring DPS, in any sort of way. With so many phase transitions and therefore downtime, it tends to favour jobs that can build resources when there is no target present.

Yes that makes sense, and it's good that sometimes BLM matches SAM. That's how it should be. Not sure why you keep debating it when it clearly happens in the game and the game is not ruined. Thank goodness some fights exist where BLM gameplay is properly rewarded.

[Mikey_R]

Why should it not? What is the point of a class being a selfish dps if it does not bring the most dps possible? You may as well not even call it that. SAM is selfish dps-- BLM and MCH are just selfish (in cases where they do not compete with SAM).

Stop comparing it to SAM, the 2 have different DPS balancing requirements.

Being a selfish DPS is just that it provides no DPS utility, and therefore the highest DPS, WITHIN THE DPS ROLE THEY ARE TRING TO FILL. This is the thing you keep glossing over and pretend it doesn't matter, when it does.