BLM DPS

[Ggwppino]

But you have said its aDPS is already far too high compared to its counterparts. Now you are saying the aDPS cannot be lowered in favor of more utility.

I might have explained myself badly. If you add the party buff to the blm, I don't see why it should be first in aDPS/nDPS. It is no longer a pure dps.

You keep painting me as DPS obssessed when I am not and I have no indicated that in any way

You focused on that fact, I just wanted to make a note on what the post said. His thesis was that other classes did equal damage to blm but they also had buffs, and he started listing classes with buffs. I corrected by saying that the blm actually, even considering the buffs, does more damage than the other casters (filtering the fact that the blm is a caster and has nothing to do with the other types of dps).

How would it break the game if BLM did more damage than a Samurai?

It doesn't break any balance. But precisely because the two things are not related. Ah then I'm not against the buff dps of the blm, but I just find it useless.

I'm also saying that leveling as BLM and starting high end as BLM does feel rough sometimes because expectations are high and it does feel a little frustrating because other casters have automatic desirability based on their utility

The pressure is due to the fact that you are a pure dps and if you don't do dps you risk being mistreated. But this applies to all dps.

The blm right from the start has always been the caster with rDPS higher. It's right? absolutely yes and personally if put only like this it is also little.

In fairness, he got an extra burst entering the melee rDPS window (which melee are deliberately blatantly the dps that need to do the most damage).

Before there was a clear rDPS windows distinction between melees, casters and p-ranged.

A static may prefer whether to have more ress and choose an RDM, or have more dps like a melee and then choose a BLM. And a static may consider having a BLM in team instead of a melee (since the BLM has broken the caster rDPS barrier). You say that the ress is a free pass to get the spot, but in general that's not the case: it's a great way not to reset immediately during the mechanics prog but its true usefulness ends there.

they get a free pass where BLM has to prove it

the right optimization must always be there, if you are a rdm and you don't reach the standards the static set, there is no excuse for that, not even the much glorified ress. However it is a dps and in any case it must deal a fair amount of damage.

raiders often judge things by desirability and how it fits into a meta, and from what I understand, BLM simply is not that

You are right that many raiders are cynical and want the best. That's why the mch for 2 years has been loused up like the plague. But I don't understand why the blm should be regarded as the mch. Why shouldn't the blm be considered desirable? If it brings high dps?*

what is the point of a glass cannon build that doesn't really do top DMG and doesn't bring anything else to the party?

Even with a fine optimization, a blm still remains superior to other casters. Also, being a pure dps, it clearly only carries dps.
But the concept is even more general: why should I have a dps in party that doesn't do dps?



------
*I pretended nothing or rather wrote between the lines because I am afraid to open this parenthesis because it could be misinterpreted / my basic English does not allow me to express myself at my best, not digested well or open a pandora's box.
BLM is one of the few classes that is still complicated to optimize. Hard-content is slowly being made more and more accessible by those who take a class at 90 as soon as it is done and demand right away to be able to close. In the mmo's I have always played, before tackling hard-content, there was a need to learn one's class well, either because players demanded it or because the game itself demanded it. This does not mean to give clear-cut difference between those who are good and those who are not, it means that those who wanted to do high-level content had to put dedication into it and not have it ready-made right away. This is evidenced by the extreme simplification that the classes are reaching: the mnk, a positional class, has lost practically all the positional, the sam which slowly lost everything that characterized it and made it much more complex to the point of even removing kaiten, the mch which slowly became the class it is now, arriving at the abomination (in the extreme simplification of rotation) that is the smn. Not to mention the extreme size of the hitboxes making melee gain perennial uptime and making tanks lose the role of positioning. Having opened this parenthesis, the BLM but also the RDM have to compete with a class that has autoplay and also with a mobility of a p-ranged. Clearly they are at a distinct disadvantage because a class that has no damage variance since it has nothing to optimize (thus guaranteed damage and also high) with a ress can close so many doors to these two classes: Why bring in an rdm or a blm that may not know how to quickly optimize damage, when I can bring in a class with autopilot and in extreme cases also has ress? Currently blm and rdm have a big problem and that is the unfair no depth of smn. So while the BLM damage is fair, it is the bug in the system that makes life difficult for other casters in general. Or rather, the problem does not lie in the blm but lies in the casters situation (actually in smn).

[Turtledeluxe]

I might have explained myself badly. If you add the party buff to the blm, I don't see why it should be first in aDPS/nDPS. It is no longer a pure dps.

And? As I keep saying you are basically saying you only want BLM to be an inferior alternative to SAM (harder to prog with, not as high DPS), with no utility (so casters with utility will always be preferred to them). I am asking why we cannot position BLM to be more desirable, and you cannot answer it except to say that I am imagining that it is undesirable. So I suppose we just have to disagree.

It doesn't break any balance.

So why have you and other people been arguing with me, sometimes to an insulting degree (no in your case), that BLM just can't have any more DPS? I don't understand. Doing equal to or more DPS than SAM either means nerfing SAM a bit or buffing BLM (and technically either way, it's a buff for BLM). On the other hand we can't give BLM utility. Again I am asking, are you telling me the best case for BLM you can come up with is its current state, where it is an inferior DPS option and void utility option?

But this applies to all dps.

You are willfully denying that a DPS with utility has an edge.

A static may prefer whether to have more ress and choose an RDM, or have more dps like a melee and then choose a BLM. And a static may consider having a BLM in team instead of a melee (since the BLM has broken the caster rDPS barrier). You say that the ress is a free pass to get the spot, but in general that's not the case: it's a great way not to reset immediately during the mechanics prog but its true usefulness ends there.

Ah, now we are downplaying res, of course. So why don't we make Summoners top DPS and make BLM a res/DPS class? No one would want that because Summoners love the spot they're in right now, gameplay issues aside. Again, conversation will go no where because your interest is keeping things the same. I think the game should be updated, often. Also I already said that res is not necessarily a free pass, but denying that utility isn't valued in raids over a selfish DPS is dishonest. I don't want to sound mean but it's not even a conversation you're having in good faith.

But the concept is even more general: why should I have a dps in party that doesn't do dps?

What are you talking about? RDM and SMN are not top DPS yet are highly desirable. BLM does not need to be a selfish DPS-- it simply is one by design (of the developers), and not an ideal one, based on your own arguments presented here.

So, in conclusion, I remain unconvinced that the thread has been satisfactorily answered.
"BLM does enough DPS to clear" -- yes and SAM does more, with more efficiency.
"BLM competes with melee" -- and? Let's be honest, they don't compete for the caster spot if meta is a concern for the party.
"BLM can't have utility, other casters have that" -- then homogenize all the casters as moderate DPS/ moderate utility each with their own unique utility. It isn't that hard. Homogenization seems to be their thing anyway.

Or we could just do what is the most simple and makes the most sense, and buff BLM /nerf SAM, which is what the very post asks, that people have dismissed so much.

[Ggwppino]

And? As I keep saying you are basically saying you only want BLM to be an inferior alternative to SAM (harder to prog with, not as high DPS), with no utility (so casters with utility will always be preferred to them). I am asking why we cannot position BLM to be more desirable, and you cannot answer it except to say that I am imagining that it is undesirable. So I suppose we just have to disagree.

I'm of the opinion that if you increase the damage to the BLM it's for pure satisfaction in seeing the parse. If sqe boosts it, I don't pull my hair out, because I'm not against its boost, but I just find it useless.

You are willfully denying that a DPS with utility has an edge.

No I'm not denying it, I'm just sizing it up. because the considerations that statics make are also these: am I interested in having the ress or having more damage? So clearly having a utility is an advantage, but also having more damage it is. If the blm had the same damage as the rdm then I would agree with you but it doesn't.

[Turtledeluxe]

I'm of the opinion that if you increase the damage to the BLM it's for pure satisfaction in seeing the parse. If sqe boosts it, I don't pull my hair out, because I'm not against its boost, but I just find it useless.

I'm of the opinion that boosting it would mean more people play the class, more people participate in Savage/Ultimate with the class, instead of being an "experts only club". And I'm not saying that because I personally suck at the class-- I actually find it easy to play. The reason I began thinking about utility in the first place is because if I am the last to survive in a party, I can't res anyone, so my high DPS is effectively useless for completing the fight (depending on the situation) as a BLM cannot sustain prolonged damage on the level of say, a WAR, or any melee with self healing. BLM has a single defensive measure with a long recast. I'm of the opinion that if you've mastered BLM to the point where you can have high DPS in an Ultimate fight, you deserve to be rewarded with at minimum equivalent DPS to whoever the number 1 spot is.

No I'm not denying it, I'm just sizing it up. because the considerations that statics make are also these: am I interested in having the ress or having more damage? So clearly having a utility is an advantage, but also having more damage it is. If the blm had the same damage as the rdm then I would agree with you but it doesn't.

Yes and I think data shows us over time, they choose utility. Unless I am misunderstanding and I am happy to be corrected.

[Ggwppino]

I'm of the opinion that boosting it would mean more people play the class, more people participate in Savage/Ultimate with the class, instead of being an "experts only club".

If we take any caster with the same damage percentile, the blm would still be in the lead, because it already basically does more damage.

I'm of the opinion that if you've mastered BLM to the point where you can have high DPS in an Ultimate fight, you deserve to be rewarded with at minimum equivalent DPS to whoever the number 1 spot is.

Do you see that it's just out of satisfaction of seeing a high number on a third-party site? I'm totally fine with that, but that doesn't gain the blm anything on a practical level. The last buff did, but an additional buff would not change the situation it is in now at all, it would just reconfirm it

Yes and I think data shows us over time, they choose utility. Unless I am misunderstanding and I am happy to be corrected.

Old smn. the old summoner had ress, but was played by few people, and was (with regret) revisited.