Healer Survey:

[Renathras]

...

I believe all three of the ones you posted I classified as "dissatisfied". Though it's possible some you are counting as dissatisfied I put in the neutral camp (I also did this with someone who said something that seemed to be marginally satisfied but with reservations enough to be neutral). I'm also going to do a second pass to see if my initial assignments seem accurate or not.

As to the populations - I'm sorry, why is it that we may only take the advice of people who are not positive and not casual? Are casual and positive people not part of the playerbase? Since the point of this exercise is to see what the PLAYERBASE feels, not what only hardcore and upset people feel.

Recall Ty issued this challenge to me to determine if the playerbase agrees with me or disagrees, and he even set out the initial questions with my only changes being to remove the coaching (by asking, for example, if players were dissatisfied/satisfied where his questions only asked one, which could taint the responses) and adding the fourth question so we could see how far people want to go on that metric. It wasn't just to see what high end raiders thought or only what people upset with the game thought; it was to see what the playerbase as a whole might be feeling.

I'm trying to do the very thing opposite of what you are - get a fair appraisal of what the playerbase feels, not only listen to people who think like me.

I'm also not doing only the mainsub. I said my first pass had been of the mainsub, since that was the one I posted first and the one I started with to work on my spreadsheet. You're trying to poison the well before I even say what the result is. Very interesting...

Also, it's kinda laughable you think negative options always get downvoted and moderated "to oblivion"; people tend not to post serious discussions there. Not only that, in Discussion, negative opinions TEND to get very upvoted quite a lot while positive ones tend to get downvoted. There's a slow trend away from that as people are getting tired of the hyperbole, but for a while it's been that way.

Regardless, it's irrelevant:

For people to get a vote to count, they need to make a post. There's no way to check if an upvote has come from someone that made a post or not, and counting the upvote AND post (if they did both) would double count them and taint the results. I get some people don't like posting, but if they aren't posting, we can't be sure what THEIR view is since they aren't stating it. And no, an upvote isn't a statement of a position. Many people can agree with broad strokes but not specifics, and people who actually make posts are invested enough to do so. Until you can show me a way to tell if a person who posts ALSO upvoted something so I can only count them once, that's a bad metric to use.

And it's STILL the least trustworthy, least scientific method available to determine what people think.

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Man, it's almost like you're afraid the outcome won't support your view or something and trying to tilt the scale and incite doubt in advance...very interesting, but irrelevant.

[ForsakenRoe]

I guess if you make enough threads eventually you'll find at least one other player that agrees with you that WHM should have zero skill ceiling, and then you can lord over all of us unenlightened 'dirty elitists' that you were right all along

As true as ever it seems. Also, why on earth didn't you have like, any system behind this 'project' at all? Why not have a google forms survey or whatever, where you could ask questions with a 1-10 rating like:

How satisfied are you with WHM's gameplay right now?
How satisfied are you with SCH's gameplay right now?
How satisfied are you with AST's gameplay right now?
How satisfied are you with SGE's gameplay right now?
How satisfied are you with the gameplay of how damage is dealt to the players in FFXIV right now?
How satisfied are you with the gameplay of how we heal that damage in FFXIV right now?
How satisfied are you with the gameplay of how we mitigate (shields, Soil, Kerachole, etc) damage in FFXIV right now?

On a scale of 1-10, how much would you be willing to try 'more healing required' as a solution SE explores to address healer engagement?
On a scale of 1-10, how much would you be willing to try 'more damage moves' (rotational complexity would become on par with tanks) as a solution SE explores to address healer engagement?
On a scale of 1-10, how much would you be willing to try 'more utilities and focus on their application' (ie, using CC to control adds, using a Dispel roleaction to remove a boss's buffs, etc) as a solution SE explores to address healer engagement?

And a final page saying 'If you like, please use this blank page to go into detail about anything else you might want to emphasize, or feel the 1-10 ratings do not accurately represent', so that someone can say 6/10 for AST, and then specify that 'I gave 6/10 because I really like the delayed healing aesthetic and enjoy playing around it, but subtracted some rating because I find the new cards being 'oops all balances' really boring and flat, if we had the old cards I'd put it closer to 8/10, maybe even a 9'

Instead we've got just the 'go into more detail' part, and it's open to interpretation biases. If someone says 'yeh AST is okay, I like the healing but the cards are kinda bland and spamming Malefic isn't very interesting, gets the job done though', one person might read that as 'AST is okay, neutral rating' and another might read it as 'AST is fun when healing, but dog when you know the fight, overall that means dissatisfied cos we spend a lot more time knowing a fight than we do learning it'.

Man, it's almost like you're afraid the outcome won't support your view or something and trying to tilt the scale and incite doubt in advance...very interesting, but irrelevant.

Man you're the one making all these threads, surveys, whatevers, to try and find 'support for your view'. Even in those threads, we can see you are asking for clarification from people when they give their views. And often, when they do, you ask for clarification on that clarification too. To the point where often, you're the final comment in the chain. This says to me 'the person who asked the question is not satisfied with the answer given, and is trying to get a specific response'. And you can't be asking 'X Y Z, have I understood that right' as that creates opportunities for the surveryor's biases to creep in, I don't see why a solid 'could you clarify what you meant by 'X (direct copy paste quote)' point?' wasn't used. Then again, I don't see why a lot of things about this were/weren't done, like why it was done in the first place, or why it wasn't collected in a more easily tabulated format

[ty_taurus]

As true as ever it seems. Also, why on earth didn't you have like, any system behind this 'project' at all? Why not have a google forms survey or whatever, where you could ask questions with a 1-10 rating like:

How satisfied are you with WHM's gameplay right now?
How satisfied are you with SCH's gameplay right now?
How satisfied are you with AST's gameplay right now?
How satisfied are you with SGE's gameplay right now?
How satisfied are you with the gameplay of how damage is dealt to the players in FFXIV right now?
How satisfied are you with the gameplay of how we heal that damage in FFXIV right now?
How satisfied are you with the gameplay of how we mitigate (shields, Soil, Kerachole, etc) damage in FFXIV right now?

On a scale of 1-10, how much would you be willing to try 'more healing required' as a solution SE explores to address healer engagement?
On a scale of 1-10, how much would you be willing to try 'more damage moves' (rotational complexity would become on par with tanks) as a solution SE explores to address healer engagement?
On a scale of 1-10, how much would you be willing to try 'more utilities and focus on their application' (ie, using CC to control adds, using a Dispel roleaction to remove a boss's buffs, etc) as a solution SE explores to address healer engagement?

I actually set these up for...

WHM
SCH
AST
SGE

But I haven't posted them anywhere except in this post yet. Figure it'd be too redundant to have both this and Ren's running at the same time.

[Amenara]

I actually set these up for...

WHM
SCH
AST
SGE

But I haven't posted them anywhere except in this post yet. Figure it'd be too redundant to have both this and Ren's running at the same time.

I think this is a more effective way of both quantitatively and qualitatively coming up with feelings on how healers play and opinions on them. That being said I did reply to the reddit thread too.

[ForsakenRoe]

I actually set these up for...

WHM
SCH
AST
SGE

But I haven't posted them anywhere except in this post yet. Figure it'd be too redundant to have both this and Ren's running at the same time.

Damn, shame cos I think the data you could get from these would be a lot more precise and a much more easily tabulated format. And if both were run (or yours were done after Ren's) I assume a lot of people would just not bother with it, because 'didnt we already just get asked this', so it'd cause the data to be skewed towards 'people who feel so strongly about the subject they're willing to reiterate their stance over and over', aka people like us

[ty_taurus]

Damn, shame cos I think the data you could get from these would be a lot more precise and a much more easily tabulated format. And if both were run (or yours were done after Ren's) I assume a lot of people would just not bother with it, because 'didnt we already just get asked this', so it'd cause the data to be skewed towards 'people who feel so strongly about the subject they're willing to reiterate their stance over and over', aka people like us

Yeah I'll probably post them in a few weeks or so. Idk, will have to see. I also don't want to post another thread here that's basically the same as this one. Maybe it's worth putting up in general?

[ForsakenRoe]

Yeah I'll probably post them in a few weeks or so. Idk, will have to see. I also don't want to post another thread here that's basically the same as this one. Maybe it's worth putting up in general?

IDK if anything I'd rather SE get their fingers out of their backsides, and did one of them themselves, with a link ingame like their 'tune into our stream and maybe win something' purple server broadcasts (have it send on login with an entry period of like a week or two), and maybe incentivize it with something like 'hey fill out this survey and not only help guide the design of the role for the next expansion, but also you'll get this cool cosmetic for free', make it, idk, a fat cat themed headgear that has the same wobble effect as the slime from the DQ crossover. A Fat Hat if you will, that'll get people to participate for sure

[ty_taurus]

IDK if anything I'd rather SE get their fingers out of their backsides, and did one of them themselves, with a link ingame like their 'tune into our stream and maybe win something' purple server broadcasts (have it send on login with an entry period of like a week or two), and maybe incentivize it with something like 'hey fill out this survey and not only help guide the design of the role for the next expansion, but also you'll get this cool cosmetic for free', make it, idk, a fat cat themed headgear that has the same wobble effect as the slime from the DQ crossover. A Fat Hat if you will, that'll get people to participate for sure

You know, I'll make one for every job and put that up in general and keep it updated with sharing results as well. It honestly is the kind of thing SE probably should have in the game, like a prominent area with new surveys not only for the jobs, but also for content, and offer small rewards like gil, maybe teleport coupons, or maybe you release them with mogtome events and make the reward a chunk of mogtomes to get started, since those are typically released during slower periods after a patch's content has been played through thoroughly. Other live service games do this, and it likely has a lot of value in collecting feedback from multiple angles from many different categories of players.

But you know what? I've got some time and passion for this game. Maybe that info will be seen by a community manager or something if it gains momentum. It's not likely that it will have any impact, but who knows?

[Renathras]

I actually set these up for...

Minor quibble: You have to pick a "more" category. The question doesn't let you submit without it. Even if there's a Job where you don't want any more actions, respondents aren't allowed the opportunity to NOT say they want more. There should be a "no new actions" and a "reduce/consolidate actions" choice. I know a lot of people feel like SCH and especially AST have too many and need a reduction.

I like the basic idea, though. If you could make those changes, I'd post them into my survey OPs too to see if we could get more participants that way.

...

Because Ty proposed it.

I literally took his questions, added words to make them neutral (e.g. instead of "are you dissatisfied? If not why not?" I changed it to "Are you satisfied/dissatisfied?"), and added a fourth question to see if people wanting more damage buttons wanted just a few or wanted a full on DPS rotation.

Man you're the one making all these threads, surveys, whatevers, to try and find 'support for your view'.

Because Ty LITERALLY asked me to: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6215580

It's almost like someone trying to support your argument proposed something thinking I wouldn't do it, then when I did it, collectively there's now a realization it could provide actual hard data suggesting your collective position isn't as unassailable as you guys always insist that it is; and in an effort to "get out in front of this", you're all attacking the questions, survey, and methodology before the results have even come in because you're afraid it won't support your position as absolute.

The thing is, NO position is absolute. It was just lying to yourselves for you guys to think so all this time.

Many times I've been asked to provide data to support my position - something never asked of anyone on the side opposed to me - and many times I've provided it, only for it to be ignored or "That doesn't count!"-ed. I said to Ty that would probably happen this time as well - lo and behold, it's happening...like I'm some kind of prophet here or somethin' - but I said:

Though, you know what?

I'm gonna do it anyway. Because now I'm curious...

"What're you doing?!"
"What am I doing??"
"Thwartin' my plans?!"
"Thwarting your plans??"
"ARE you?!?"
"..... You know what? YES!"

[Vegeta Trunks thwarting my plans?]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fS80eaPKXs

All those worries and all that potential fracturing of false appeal to your position just being default and accepted aside, I don't really care about that stuff.

What I care about is, what does the community collectively actually feel and want. Because they're as much players as you are, as am I.

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If you have a problem with the questions - complain to Ty. He's the one that proposed them.

But it is interesting to me how quickly all of you are to attack an actual attempt to see what the community really thinks. Almost as if you know, as I have long thought as well, that your position is not a commanding majority of the playerbase as a whole. A point I've been shot down on every time I suggested it, but which seems to match reality. Or, perhaps it's merely something so base as fearing I might be right about something and will gloat about it or some such.

For my part, I just want to know the truth. What does the data actually show.

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But hey, if YOU think you can do it better, by all means - post your survey. Then we can compare notes. Just remember to add in a question on the end: "On a scale of 1-10, how much would you like the Healer Job you play to remain as it is (with expansions adding the typical 1-2 new abilities/upgrades to existing abilities)?" and "On a scale of 1-10, would you be willing to accept the game changing 1 Healer to be very damage rotation complex, 2 Healers to be moderately complex, and leave 1 Healer as it is today for players that enjoy the current playstyle?"

Then we can compare notes and see what the people seem to be saying.

The reality is, the community's position on the whole is nuanced.

[Allegor]

I actually set these up for...

WHM
SCH
AST
SGE

But I haven't posted them anywhere except in this post yet. Figure it'd be too redundant to have both this and Ren's running at the same time.

There's a rather fatal flaw on your polls Ty. There's an * on the question about challenging content, meaning casuals like myself are forced to lie to even submit the form. I put a 1 because I loathe high end content either way, but that has little to do with the current state of healers.