Inevitable Job Simplifications?

[Dahlinea]

It felt like the kitchen sink job--a garage sale of many different pieces that have no interaction with one another outside of specific, isolated combinations.

Yeah I can't agree with that or we're having different interpretations of what "disjoint" means. Disjoint for me is isolated pieces or independent and current SMN has a lot of independent blocks that don't interact with each other at all. Old SMN had dependencies, abilities resetting because of using other ones, the potency of Fester altering because of because of DoTs, using Egi-assaults before so we get to use Ruin IV during Bahamut to take most of it... I can't see this as disjoint at all.

I can understand your point if you mean that those abilities are not of same nature to be interacting with each other, because as a job system when you look at them as purely skills and abilities they did interact.

I just hope they free Bahamut/Phoenix from being a requirement to accessing the legos and add more additional abilities to fill the gaps the job has on next expansion.

[ty_taurus]

Yeah I can't agree with that or we're having different interpretations of what "disjoint" means. Disjoint for me is isolated pieces or independent and current SMN has a lot of independent blocks that don't interact with each other at all. Old SMN had dependencies, abilities resetting because of using other ones, the potency of Fester altering because of because of DoTs, using Egi-assaults before so we get to use Ruin IV during Bahamut to take most of it... I can't see this as disjoint at all.

I can understand your point if you mean that those abilities are not of same nature to be interacting with each other, because as a job system when you look at them as purely skills and abilities they did interact.

I just hope they free Bahamut/Phoenix from being a requirement to accessing the legos and add more additional abilities to fill the gaps the job has on next expansion.

I mean, I'll definitely grant that SMN was never a major part of my gameplay experience prior, so my opinion is definitely one worth taking with a grain of salt, but it was the one DPS I played at least somewhat frequently at times prior to ShB since ARR.

But what I liked about SB SMN was that it felt like most of what you did was all working toward this one big moment where you summoned Bahamut. ShB removed that aspect, and the Egi Assaults into Ruin IV didn't contribute to that either. It felt like the thing I wanted to do, which is summon, was always interrupted by fidget tasks to keep my damage decent until I could summon again. The remaining connection Tri-Disaster had with summons was the one thing that felt connective.

EDIT: You know, having said that, wouldn't it be an incredibly simple change to just rearrange the Ifrit/Titan/Garuda relationship with Bahamut/Phoenix? Like instead of Bahamut and Phoenix granting you 1 of each gem, what if Summon Ifrit/Titan/Garuda gives you that respective gem instead of taking it, and you need to have 3 different gems to summon Bahamut or summon Phoenix? Like, that's not the magic cure for everything, but it immediately allows you to just resummon Titan if you need to delay your burst, and also makes it very easy to add a 4th summon potentially that is interchangable and has some other element that encourages all 4 see use throughout the fight at different times?

You can still summon Bahamut right away at the beginning of an instance for your opener.

[Dahlinea]

I mean, I'll definitely grant that SMN was never a major part of my gameplay experience prior, so my opinion is definitely one worth taking with a grain of salt, but it was the one DPS I played at least somewhat frequently at times prior to ShB since ARR.

But what I liked about SB SMN was that it felt like most of what you did was all working toward this one big moment where you summoned Bahamut. ShB removed that aspect, and the Egi Assaults into Ruin IV didn't contribute to that either. It felt like the thing I wanted to do, which is summon, was always interrupted by fidget tasks to keep my damage decent until I could summon again. The remaining connection Tri-Disaster had with summons was the one thing that felt connective.

I get what you mean. The time I had my most fun with SMN was by the end of Heavensward and during Stormblood. If we compare ShB SMN with SB SMN I completely agree that SB was better. It was a shame the Egis didn't work because their abilities were nice. Rouse, Radiant Shield, Earthen Ward, Contagion... I miss those.

EDIT: You know, having said that, wouldn't it be an incredibly simple change to just rearrange the Ifrit/Titan/Garuda relationship with Bahamut/Phoenix? Like instead of Bahamut and Phoenix granting you 1 of each gem, what if Summon Ifrit/Titan/Garuda gives you that respective gem instead of taking it, and you need to have 3 different gems to summon Bahamut or summon Phoenix? Like, that's not the magic cure for everything, but it immediately allows you to just resummon Titan if you need to delay your burst, and also makes it very easy to add a 4th summon potentially that is interchangable and has some other element that encourages all 4 see use throughout the fight at different times?

You can still summon Bahamut right away at the beginning of an instance for your opener.

I proposed something like that and other things in another thread about future hopes of caster. It was like that about I/G/T filling the gem gauge, the difference is that instead of Bahamut/Phoenix it would give access to a repurposed Tri-disaster ability and expend all gems after using it and reset the summons (or shift, if more summons are added). There I decoupled the 3 summons from Bahamut/Phoenix but it could work as gathering the gems to summons the big ones and makes more sense in this order.

[Renathras]

....

New SMN - Demis feed into Primals, Primals feed into their sub-phase, Ruin 4 exists as a movement tool during two of the phases if needed, and that's the Job. The only thing "off to the side" (another way of saying "disjointed") is Energy Drain, Energy Siphon (though those prep Ruin 4, so they have a reason to exist, they just make less thematic sense), and Fester. Painflare, technically coming from Bahamut, thematically makes sense for SMN to have. The only part of the kit that doesn't thematically make sense is the Aetherflow part, but it IS connected to the Job as a whole as driving its burst as weaves between Bahamut GCDs.

(Note: Not having DoTs to interact with isn't part of a definition of connected or coherent.)

Old SMN had DoTs that weren't connected to the rest of its kit. Egi-Assaults that weren't connected to the rest of the kit. Ruin 4 that derived from Egi-Assaults for......no one knows (this is just as disjointed as New SMN's generation of Ruin 4, not somehow better). Bahamut was disjointed from Phoenix. Aetherflow STILL made no lore sense for Summoner and was just this weird thing on the side, especially once it was removed from DWT. None of the systems were connected or tied together other than DWT leading into Bahamut. Ruin 4 was used under Bahamut but had no connection to it. Egi-Assaults were used in the filler for movement but had no connection to DWT or FBT, and only had a connection to Bahamut indirectly. Aetherflow and Fester weren't connected to DWT, FBT, Bhamaut, or Egis, were only connected to the DoTs through one ability (Fester), and only vaguely connected to DWT and FBT via Tri-Disaster being refreshed by them (but T-D existed independent of DWT and FBT, so it's only a tenuous connection).

New SMN, everything's connected and continuous other than Energy Drain/Fester, which is kind of a side game like AST Cards that isn't connected to the main system.

Old SMN, DoTs weren't connected to anything other than Fester, Aetherflow wasn't connected to anything except DoTs ONLY WHEN using Fester, Bahamut wasn't connected to anything, Egis weren't connected to anything, and DWT and FBT were only connected to each other via shared CD, and loosely to Tri-Disaster which also existed by itself over to the side.

Old SMN was very much more disjointed, if we're using the definition of "not connected, coherent, or continuous". You can bask in the 12 people that can read a definition then upvote a thing that violates that very definition, but it's still wrong.

.

Again, admitting New SMN is less disjointed than Old SMN doesn't make New SMN better. It's not some admission that New SMN is amazing. It's just an admission of reality. /shakeshead

Also, you keep doing the stupid thing. It's not a failure as the kit works fine and the Job is the most popular with players of all the Casters. The word you're looking for there is success. It's okay to say "I don't like something". That's fine. you can say that.

What I'm annoyed with is you lying.

Fist of all,
Wall of text with a lot of misconceptions

First of all, ShB SMN was disjointed.

That's the point.

The thing is, it wasn't BAD. This is what you both are misunderstanding. A thing can be more disjointed YET STILL BE GOOD. Just as a thing can be less disjointed YET STILL BE BAD. It's okay to admit a thing isn't the worst thing every in EVERY POSSIBLE WAY AT ONCE, you know?

Also, you aren't reading my posts, then. I played Old SMN. And as I've said many times, I liked Old SMN. I get you're now just all jumping on me because you don't want to say New SMN has anything going for it. Because for some reason, people seem to think "If I admit a thing I don't like has anything at all good about it, this will somehow surrender my entire position". It...doesn't And the "well, you just read a website and didn't know what you were doing or are trolling"?

Really?

I'm surprised you didn't call my mother fat along with that stupidity.

ou said it all. There is basically no system to manage, that's why the job is braindead as it is. And that's why we're complaining about it.

Yeah, but this is the point: It can't be disjointed if there's nothing really to BE disjointed!

I'm trying to get you guys to stop with the kitchen sink insults of "everything and anything negative must be true about New SMN". It turns out it has a few positives to it - other than "braindead", if one considers that a positive (you clearly do not). Sometimes, you may dislike a thing, but should learn to admit when it has things that are in its favor. That's how one can actually prove they know what they're talking about, when they can admit the good things about a thing they oppose, but explain why those don't make up for the bad and it's still a net loss overall.

It's intellectually lazy to just say everything possible about it is bad and resist any argument as "Wall of text".

There aren't disparate systems...if there aren't systems. Old SMN WAS more disparate than New SMN. The question isn't that. The question is if disparate was better or not. Make that argument instead: It at least has merit.

I disagree on this point. I will say, overall, I really like the general direction that we are trying to take SMN in, but unhappy with the execution. It just is very inflexible and feels like the kit is unfinished and empty right now, but is otherwise a good foundation for something more. ShB SMN was the most disjointed of all iterations by far. It felt like the kitchen sink job--a garage sale of many different pieces that have no interaction with one another outside of specific, isolated combinations. SB SMN was very punishing, but I think that was peak SMN experience. It felt way more cohesive than ShB's smoothie challenge headache.

Bingo.

Perfectly well said.

.

Old SMN was less disjointed, but you can absolutely argue that was a benefit. Using disjointed as a pejorative is just silly, especially since it applies more to Old SMN than New SMN.

And we also have to consider this mechanically and thematically.

Mechanically, Old SMN was more disjointed than New SMN, but thematically...Old SMN was HORRIBLY more disjointed than New SMN. Say what you will about New SMN, it knows it's a Summoner and that's what it does. Old SMN couldn't decide if it was a plague mage, a pet mage, a channeler (DWT was basically SMN channeling Bahamut), or a Summoner (or a whatever-the-heck-Aetherflow-was-er). New SMN very clearly has the Summoner thing going for it, and is thematically consistent on that point with only one major (Energy Drain) and one miner (Sub-Job: Channeler) deviation.. And unlike Old SMN with DWT/Bahamut, the Primals/Favors seems like the Primals are granting you favor to channel their powers, while Old SMN kinda just...had DWT...there.

[Dahlinea]

Flowers and rainbows

There, more peace for you.

I know you like old SMN . I'm just saying that this new SMN is bad because it is braindead and has barely no mechanics at all!

I'm just remembering you that you forgot how old SMN worked and just kept saying nonsense in comparison with how it actually behaved!

It turns out it has a few positives to it - other than "braindead", if one considers that a positive (you clearly do not). Sometimes, you may dislike a thing, but should learn to admit when it has things that are in its favor. That's how one can actually prove they know what they're talking about, when they can admit the good things about a thing they oppose, but explain why those don't make up for the bad and it's still a net loss overall.

And it's you that aren't reading all my posts if you say that. The job is braindead and need more flexibility and things to actually decide during fights, not that fake decision making legos. The execution is terrible but has the tools to be good if changes to the rotation are made and the visual are cool. I already said that, but clearly you just gloss over what want to read and discard the rest. Still have the gall to talk about intellectual laziness...

[Renathras]

I'm just remembering you that you forgot how old SMN worked and just kept saying nonsense in comparison with how it actually behaved!

Just stop. You're being intentionally antagonistic. I described how it played BECAUSE I PLAYED IT. It wasn't "reading a guide" (though I DID read guides for it - at the time - BECAUSE I PLAYED IT). You're just being needlessly antagonistic.

And it's you that aren't reading all my posts if you say that. The job is braindead and need more flexibility and things to actually decide during fights, not that fake decision making legos. The execution is terrible but has the tools to be good if changes to the rotation are made and the visual are cool. I already said that, but clearly you just gloss over what want to read and discard the rest. Still have the gall to talk about intellectual laziness...

What did I say in that quote that is wrong?

You think the Job is braindead? That's true.

You dislike the Job? Also true.

You've resisted saying good things about it? Also true. In this thread, what was the last post you said good things about New SMN? Before page 20? Before page 15? Moreover, you make any praise contingent on changes, which isn't praising the extant system.

I've gone back to page 15 so far. I can't find one place you said "It has the tools to be good" and "the visuals are cool", even if we ignore you qualified those with "if it's changed". So even if we count that, you haven't said it in the last 10ish pages of thread. I could probably go back further and also not find it.

I couldn't gloss over what you didn't say.

You're trying desperately for some kind of "gotcha" at this point and failing. Badly.

Maybe you should stop trying to insult me and address actual arguments instead...ad hominem is a logical fallacy for a reason.

.

EDIT: I've gone all the way back to page 1. At no point did you say good things (or even arguably good things) about New SMN as far as I can find.

Maybe you shouldn't lie and make false accusations against people? It would appear my "gall" is well placed.

(As it happens, I read everything I reply to - the entire posts - and am rather Entish about replies. If I'm going to reply to something, I'm going to give it a fully reply as it deserves, and that means I'm also going to read all of it. You MAY accuse me of misunderstanding from time to time, but you can't accuse me of cherry picking from your posts - which you did - and/or ignoring parts:

"gloss over what want to read and discard the rest" is an absolute lie.)

[Dahlinea]

I've gone back to page 15 so far. I can't find one place you said "It has the tools to be good" and "the visuals are cool", even if we ignore you qualified those with "if it's changed". So even if we count that, you haven't said it in the last 10ish pages of thread. I could probably go back further and also not find it.

Go to page 20 and say this again. But don't get me wrong, I like the aethetics and ideas but absolutely condemn the current execution of the job and will keep complaining about it as long as it stays in that sorry braindead state.

[moroarda]

The job is braindead and need more flexibility and things to actually decide during fights, not that fake decision making legos. The execution is terrible but has the tools to be good if changes to the rotation are made and the visual are cool.

I realize that everyone mostly wants to fight about semantics surrounding whether or not this was said and/or when that may have happened and like... okay, sure, that's fine I suppose, but the real issue is that this quote is entirely correct.
SMN is utterly braindead, and while jokes can be made about how interesting it was in past iterations there's no way to say it got more interesting in it's current form. RDM on introduction was also violently simple, as is (and has remained) DNC. This trend of introducing new jobs and/or reworking old jobs (deleting them and giving another job their name and soul crystal, in SMN's case) into mindless nonsense is really troubling for DRG and AST mains right now.

[Renathras]

Good points. Simply put, we are pigeon-holed into 3 roles and SE has backed themselves into a corner. This is why we wind up seeing limited jobs like BLU. That's how they can allow these jobs to exist, but not allowing them to do any current content.

Warden was an example of what LOTRO would consider a fairly complicated job. I'd love to see something similar in FFXIV, but it would have to set into one of the three roles and would probably lose all its flavor.

Agreed. BLU is able to do so much because it breaks with the otherwise rigid system FFXIV uses. But because it does so, it isn't allowed to compete in current content because...I guess people clearing content is bad or something.

This trend of ... reworking old jobs (deleting them and giving another job their name and soul crystal, in SMN's case) ... is really troubling.

I disagree with your post on the whole, but specifically the words above, I agree with.

I feel like at this point they should be adding these as new Jobs, not reworking/replacing existing Jobs. If a Job sucks, then let it continue to suck. If the Devs thought Old SMN was in a corner, they could just give them a new animation for Miasma and Egi Assault and then call it a day. Make no additional changes to the rotation in future expansions, just an occasional graphic upgrade to a spell. Then people can't complain the Job was changed, and if it sucks...well, then it just sucks and they want it to suck, so...let it suck. They can't complain it's not being changed, since they are on the record not wanting it reworked. They can't complain the Devs are just being lazy or vindictive since we know they would complain if the Devs seriously looked at and changed the Job. So the Job could exist as a more or less time capsule with some pretty window dressing. And that would be fine. The people that would love it would continue to love it. After all, if people loved ShB SMN, they can't well complain that it isn't changed since they already LOVE IT as it was.

I think if people want some Jobs to be terrible and unfun to play, because they somehow find that fun, that's fine, and they should absolutely be allowed to keep that. I don't think they should force it on everyone else/change other Jobs to be like that, but it's fine if some Jobs are like BLM and suck. Some few people will find them fun, everyone else will avoid them like the plague, and everyone can be vaguely happy together.

I honestly have no idea why this isn't allowed - or is allowed for BLM and nothing else.

New SMN is way better than Old SMN. It could have just been a new Job. It's not like FF lore doesn't have more than one name for the Summoner archetype. Evoker or Caller (probably Evoker) would have worked fine. Have it share the Class Arcanist and be done with it. Would some people complain about that being weird? Sure. But who cares?

As for these, they're not arguing the points and are just rampant ad hominem attempts to avoid the actual discussion going on. As such, I won't be giving them anything other than a HB text so they will stop distracting and attempting to derail the thread. If those of you quoted wish to continue derailing the thread, that's on you. If those of you who are liking their posts which have no substance, no point to the discussion, and are just derailing attempts want to continue liking their posts because they're somehow your paragons...you have questionable taste, but that's on you, too. I won't continue giving it any kind of top billing, and may honestly just ignore them as what they are - harassment and derailing attempts.

...

I see your posts.
I read your posts.
I reply to your posts - often point by point, often quoting your own words.

Saying people are bad at reading comprehension doesn't work well when they're using your own statements.

As for what is good faith - good faith means a person is making an honest attempt. (That means the "or no" doesn't count, even if that is what's happening). If I seem to be misunderstanding what you're saying, it might be worth you asking questions to see why I'm not understanding something, or restating it. I would like to know, as you asked me the question, what have I misrepresented of your position? What have I misunderstood of it?

As for mine, you've consistently ignored my posts (as you admit) and even flaunted that you were doing so. But you've also misrepresented them as favoring "braindead" (when I've clearly said I don't see SMN as "braindead"), and you seem to misunderstand when I talk about things being fun or not or discussing specific terms.

You like to be so pedantic about words and meaning and now is discarding it as if I said nothing. It's there, I said it, I didn't say just bad things about this new SMN like you claimed it. Deal with it.

Stop.
With.
The.
Attempted.
Gotcha.
Ad.
Hominem.
Fallacy.

As I noted, you're being antagonistic, and if you weren't aware, ad hominem (what you're doing right now - attacking/addressing me directly, not my argument) is a logical fallacy. "attack on the person" or "addressing the person" rather than their argument. It's an attempt to sidestep arguments that are difficult to overcome.

If I was going to be PEDANTIC, I'd note I said:

What did I say in that quote that is wrong?

...

You've resisted saying good things about it? Also true.

...and point out that you saying, in only one post in the entire thread, while also saying "but it still sucks" that the graphics were pretty could be considered "resisting" saying good things about it and only doing so grudgingly. So if I was going to be pedantic, I'd point out my statement was still true.

Also, it's not "discarding it as if (you) said nothing". It's pointing out you've said exactly ONE good thing, couched in a compound statement of negativity, and that I did not "gloss over" or "discard" it, I didn't consider it you being positive when you were couching it in "and it still sucks".

You said one thing that MAY not have been bad, and seemed to do so grudgingly.

And now you're engaging in rampant ad hominem because you don't want to actually deal with arguments which you can't overcome, so you'd rather attack the person saying them.

Meanwhile, do you know what you've done?

You that aren't reading all my posts if you say that. I already said that, but clearly you just gloss over what want to read and discard the rest.

...because I said this in my prior post, and you clearly just glossed over it and discarded the rest.

Deal with it.

[Valence]

RDM on introduction was also violently simple, as is (and has remained) DNC.

I agree with the rest of your post, but that part is factually not true. DNC has gone through rather severe drops in complexity, which I evoked earlier (loss of AoE melee in the single target flourish, loss of proc overwriting with the need to safeguard against procs just before flourishes, and loss of standard step weight in priority), the two latter ones that I agree with the changes overall but they still lowered one of the only complexities the job had for itself. DNC is NOT the same as it used to be at all, even how deceptive its overall structure looks like.

RDM if anything has become simpler in mobility due to elongated melee phases with the new finishers, and the addition of reprise. RDM has always been violently simple only in accessibility, not in terms of skill ceiling.