Question for the people who don't dislike the 2nd relic step

[DiaDeem]

The Saga of the Zodiac Weapons didn't start until the Atma step

It's still a step for the same relic at the end of the day, and you know this. Why are you moving the goal posts? OG and Zenith Steps were purple weapons, they were always called relics and are relics. You're coming across as dishonest with this one.

Sure, you could skip it with a Zeta weapon. Although I doubt you could do the first step in "a few hours"

You could. Those drop rates were always rather generous.

Except there's only two major patches left

You know they can still add long steps within that time frame, right?
As to "wait till it gets better" I never spoke about better or worse with you. You first addressed me and you did it discussing quest length, not quality.

Length doesn't equal quality and the topics have nothing to do with one another. Fighting Chimera and Hydra was way more fun and interesting at the time than farming 60 HW FATEs for Resistance, but the FATEs certainly took longer.

If you wanna talk about quality, I fall somewhere in the middle, as I think there's positives and negatives about just farming astronomy, and all I know is that while this step is hardly the best, it's also far from the worst they can make.

[Nezerius]

It's still a step for the same relic at the end of the day, and you know this. Why are you moving the goal posts? OG and Zenith Steps were purple weapons, they were always called relics and are relics. You're coming across as dishonest with this one.

If you've read my previous posts in this thread, my stance has always been that the Saga of the Zodiac Weapons is the start of the Zeta questchain.
I'd love to know how you consider this to be "moving the goal posts" or "coming across as dishonest".

You could. Those drop rates were always rather generous.

My experience with the step tells otherwise.

You know they can still add long steps within that time frame, right?
As to "wait till it gets better" I never spoke about better or worse with you. You first addressed me and you did it discussing quest length, not quality.

The general statement of "just wait till x, it'll get better", or any variation of it, is one that's often said against players who even dare to complain about any update.
Players have every right to be worried about an aspect of the game, without being told to stop worrying, because "the devs can still do x!". Especially after getting two short steps in a row.

And as I've already explained in a previous post, the x.55 step is generally a victory lap, so that leaves the 6.45 one.

[DiaDeem]

If you've read my previous posts in this thread, my stance has always been that the Saga of the Zodiac Weapons is the start of the Zeta questchain.
I'd love to know how you consider this to be "moving the goal posts" or "coming across as dishonest".

Because whether you consider the Zenith weapons part of the Zodiac quest or not, they are in fact steps required to get them. Saying they aren't is just not true by fact, and the weapons even share the same design all the way to the Zeta step. But for the sake of argument, let's say Zenith is an entirely different relic. My point still stand and may be even stronger with this weird line of thought, because now you're telling me we could fully complete an entire Relic in two or three days, with each step taking no more than a couple hours tops. So: Short steps don't mean bad quests. Length has nothing to do with quality.

My experience with the step tells otherwise.

Not gonna argue this one anymore because I can't know what your experience was. Mine was a rather quick step. I don't think you're lying, but neither am I.

The general statement of "just wait till x, it'll get better"

I made no such general statement of quality of the sort. All I did was answer OP's question as to why I don't mind this step, which again: May not be the best, but it's far from the worst. I never said it's gonna get better or worse, that's beyond the scope of my argument. I said it's probably gonna get lengthier, and if it doesn't I'll just eat my words, but my argument about length has nothing to do with quality. They're separate elements, I can't stress this enough.

You have all the right in the world to worry, but pretending this step is THE WORST RELIC QUEST STEP I feel is born out of ignorance as to how bad relic steps can actually get, or is just being alarmist. I don't think you're either.

Calling this the worst step ever however is a plain overreaction.

[Nezerius]

Because whether you consider the Zenith weapons part of the Zodiac quest or not, they are in fact steps required to get them. Saying they aren't is just not true by fact, and the weapons even share the same design all the way to the Zeta step. But for the sake of argument, let's say Zenith is an entirely different relic, even though it is not. My point still stand and may be even stronger with this weird line of thought, because now you're telling me we could fully complete an entire Relic in two or three days, with each step taking no more than a couple hours tops. So: Short steps don't mean bad quests. Length has nothing to do with quality.

If you've played during 2.0 you'd know that there was no indication on the Zodiac Weapon Saga being a thing. The quest was carried over from 1.0, and trimmed down significantly on its objectives. The journal entry for "A Relic Reborn" even specifies that it's the final stage of the restoration process. Not to mention that the journal doesn't even list these quests under the Zodiac Weapons tab. The addition of using the Thavnairian Mists was specifically added to +1 the relic (it literally added a +1 to the name), so it could match iLvl from the other gear purchased with Tomestones of Mythology.

As for them re-using the relic model for the Zodiac Weapon Sage, the game at that stage relied heavily on re-using models from 1.0 or FFXI. Likely because SE was very cautious about giving a large budget for a game that had already failed once before.

I made no such general statement of quality of the sort.

"There will be long steps ahead, don't you worry about that."
It doesn't take any mental gymnastics to tell that this boils down to "Just wait until the next patch." You're also still completely focused on the word "better", rather than the entire statement.

You have all the right in the world to worry, but pretending this step is THE WORST RELIC QUEST STEP I feel is born out of ignorance as to how bad relic steps can actually get, or is just being alarmist. I don't think you're either.

Calling this the worst step ever however is a plain overreaction.

I fail to see where I have pretended that this step is "THE WORST RELIC QUEST STEP"

I'm pointing out that having a step that's essentially a copy paste job of the previous one (down to buying 3 "meteorite chunks") is a worrying trend. Every relic weapon has had short steps, but none of them have had steps copied like this in such a blatant manner.

[Xirean]

I'm pointing out that having a step that's essentially a copy paste job of the previous one (down to buying 3 "meteorite chunks") is a worrying trend. Every relic weapon has had short steps, but none of them have had steps copied like this in such a blatant manner.

Honestly kinda wish they did. All that juggling between multiple currencies was annoying and arbitrary. Why bother dealing with literal garbage currencies and items when you can just use the existing currency that is readily available? You'll be farming the content either way. It's basically a streamlined grind.

[DiaDeem]

If you've played during 2.0 you'd know that there was no indication on the Zodiac Weapon Saga being a thing. The quest was carried over from 1.0, and trimmed down significantly on its objectives. The journal entry for "A Relic Reborn" even specifies that it's the final stage of the restoration process. Not to mention that the journal doesn't even list these quests under the Zodiac Weapons tab. The addition of using the Thavnairian Mists was specifically added to +1 the relic (it literally added a +1 to the name), so it could match iLvl from the other gear purchased with Tomestones of Mythology.

There you go, short steps aren't necessarily bad. I'm glad you understood at least one of my points.

You're also still completely focused on the word "better", rather than the entire statement.

Again... my statement was about length specifically, not quality. Sad to see this one didn't get through you, no matter how much I tried to explain it.

"There will be long steps ahead, don't you worry about that."
It doesn't take any mental gymnastics to tell that this boils down to "Just wait until the next patch."

I literally said I'd eat my words if that doesn't happen. What else do you want? Sad to see you missed that one as well.

I fail to see where I have pretended that this step is "THE WORST RELIC QUEST STEP"

Are you even reading me anymore? I literally said in my last response that I didn't think you were that.

I'm done trying to get through you. I explained my thoughts, conceded some stuff, but I don't think you're even paying attention to what I've been saying, seeing particularly how you didn't even seem to care or notice what I said about you not being an alarmist or that I literally don't mind finding out I was wrong if no lengthy stuff comes later.

I have no idea what you're trying to accomplish here. To point out that you're worried? You're right, we've never had the same step repeated before, so of course you're entitled to be worried. I also just mentioned that was valid position in my last post, but again: You're either not actually reading what I say, or you're just choosing to ignore on purpose, so what's the point.

As for what I was trying to accomplish, the same thing I've been saying from the begining: This was only my answer to OP. I don't mind this step because even if it's not great, there's been much worse in the past.

I'm out.

[Nezerius]

There you go, short steps aren't necessarily bad. I'm glad you understood at least one of my points.

It amuses me that all you got out of that part of my post is "short steps aren't necessarily bad".

Are you even reading me anymore? I literally said in my last response that I didn't think you were that.

This begs the question why you even bothered adding that entire sentence to your post to begin with. It doesn't appear to apply to anyone you've been replying to.

Again... my statement was about length specifically, not quality. Sad to see this one didn't get through you, no matter how much I tried to explain it.

I literally said I'd eat my words if that doesn't happen. What else do you want? Sad to see you missed that one as well. I'm done trying to get through you. I explained my thoughts, conceded some stuff, but I don't think you're even paying attention to what I've been saying, seeing particularly how you didn't even seem to care or notice what I said about you not being an alarmist or that I literally don't mind finding out I was wrong if no lengthy stuff comes later.

I have no idea what you're trying to accomplish here. To point out that you're worried? You're right, we've never had the same step repeated before, so of course you're entitled to be worried. I also just mentioned that was valid position in my last post, but again: You're either not actually reading what I say, or you're just choosing to ignore on purpose, so what's the point.

The last part of your post kinda blends in with the other parts of it. So I combined it into a single quote to more easily reply to it.
The point I was trying to get across is that "just wait for the next patch" is a rather empty statement. Unfortunately, you chose to tunnelvision on the word "better".

And no, I didn't miss the part about you being prepared to eat your own words. But I'm also someone who doesn't see any merit in someone eating their words when the statement is relatively empty to begin with.

As for what I was trying to accomplish, the same thing I've been saying from the begining: This was only my answer to OP. I don't mind this step because even if it's not great, there's been much worse in the past.

Kinda weird to accept a step for the simple fact that it could've been worse. It's like accepting a glass of milk that's been out in the sun, simply because it's not spoilt.

My point being that we've had short steps, and that's fine. But we haven't had two lazily done short steps in a row, with a 4 month waiting period in-between. At that point, it starts becoming a worrying trend. One that I hope doesn't extend to patch 6.45.

I'm out.

See ya.

[ReynTime]

The arguments in favor of this using 'flavor' as a reason are some of the worst arguments I have ever seen.
If the lack of specific tasks vs tomes is just "flavor", then you can apply that logic to every other content in the game. Jobs, dungeons, gear, FATEs, bosses, enemies, sidequests. Let's reduce everything to what objectively sets them apart... which is not much. I'm sure that wouldn't make the experience more shallow at all!

As for them re-using the relic model for the Zodiac Weapon Sage, the game at that stage relied heavily on re-using models from 1.0 or FFXI. Likely because SE was very cautious about giving a large budget for a game that had already failed once before.

The game still does this with gear and with enemy models. To this day we still get bosses and enemies that use the same model and animations of enemies introduced in 1.0 with minor surface alterations masking it. Only trial and raid bosses are entirely original.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

Every relic weapon has had short steps, but none of them have had steps copied like this in such a blatant manner.

>Implying Mahatma & Light grind from ARR relic aren't blatant copies of each other, which is then blatantly copied again during the HW relic
>Implying at least 5 different steps (likely more, memory a bit foggy) across the various relics aren't just blatantly carbon-copied 'Farm -x- fates in -y- region for -z- drop at some unspecified %drop rate'.
>Implying every step of the Eureka relic sans the final ones aren't just blatantly copying each other (kill zone boss to get special upgrade material, farm x amount of NM crystals)

While this step was lackluster in terms of giving something for people to do, let's take off the rose-tinted glasses and look at the objective truth that Square's relic design has been massively full of copy-paste. People have been complaining for a while now that its difficult to gear & spec into multiple jobs, so they decided to rectify that by making the current two steps be easy and very wide open to multi-relic, they see no need to dress up the step in some illusion that ultimately comes down to 'do this exact same task you've already done before but -x- more times'

Besides, with a relic design like this, there's nothing stopping people from making the quest whatever they want to be. Wanted it to force you to run Puppet's Bunker 15x? Then go run it 15x before buying the relic. Wanted it to force you to do variant dungeons till your eyes bled? Go spend all your tomestones so you start at 0, then go grind Variant till you have 1500. For anyone who was hoping the relic quest would be a grind, there's nothing stopping you from making it as grindy as you want - the only thing missing is Square Enix's authoritative voice telling you exactly how to do it with no fun allowed to alternatives otherwise. There's nothing limiting you besides your imagination! : )

This got such a good laugh from me.

[DiaDeem]

>Implying Mahatma & Light grind from ARR relic aren't blatant copies of each other, which is then blatantly copied again during the HW relic
>Implying at least 5 different steps (likely more, memory a bit foggy) across the various relics aren't just blatantly carbon-copied 'Farm -x- fates in -y- region for -z- drop at some unspecified %drop rate'.
>Implying every step of the Eureka relic sans the final ones aren't just blatantly copying each other (kill zone boss to get special upgrade material, farm x amount of NM crystals)

While this step was lackluster in terms of giving something for people to do, let's take off the rose-tinted glasses and look at the objective truth that Square's relic design has been massively full of copy-paste. People have been complaining for a while now that its difficult to gear & spec into multiple jobs, so they decided to rectify that by making the current two steps be easy and very wide open to multi-relic, they see no need to dress up the step in some illusion that ultimately comes down to 'do this exact same task you've already done before but -x- more times'

Besides, with a relic design like this, there's nothing stopping people from making the quest whatever they want to be. Wanted it to force you to run Puppet's Bunker 15x? Then go run it 15x before buying the relic. Wanted it to force you to do variant dungeons till your eyes bled? Go spend all your tomestones so you start at 0, then go grind Variant till you have 1500. For anyone who was hoping the relic quest would be a grind, there's nothing stopping you from making it as grindy as you want - the only thing missing is Square Enix's authoritative voice telling you exactly how to do it with no fun allowed to alternatives otherwise. There's nothing limiting you besides your imagination! : )