SE, don't overthink Summoner 7.0. Just give people what they want. Just do it.

[fulminating]

The way it has been redesigned leaves little to no room for growth - what can realistically be added to it without heavily restructuring the rotation?

The job currently has very little depth, presumably deliberately - you can shift the crayons around, but ultimately you're never going to want to end them early nor have more than a couple of ruins leeway/2m. That combined with the high mobility on this new summoner is also an issue - I don't think many would say black mage's difficulty lies in its rotation, but more about maintaining it throughout the combat encounter. If new summoner is to be this simple it cannot be this mobile.

Aetherflow being vestigial rather than a core mechanic doesn't help either - most dps have at least two resources to manage, usually 3. (mch has heat/battery, sam sen/kenki(lmao)/positionals, war tank responsibilities/beast gauge/infuriate timer, scholar aetherflow/healer resources/fey gauge(lmao) or bio timer). Summoner barely has aetherflow, crayons are on rails and it's not like cast time really has to be taken into consideration.

The pet also being vestigial rather than a core mechanic doesn't sit well either. What is its point anymore? It doesn't auto attack, it barely even pretends to exist - they even patched out its ability to cast searing light during asphodelos.

The fact that a job where the skill floor and ceiling weren't the same line was sacrificed for this is just further insult - although in fairness there seems to have been a fair amount of that across the board.

I've been over this before so sorry if this sounds uninterested and I'm pretty sure there's some points I've forgotten to mention.

[Vinal211]

The way it has been redesigned leaves little to no room for growth - what can realistically be added to it without heavily restructuring the rotation?

The job currently has very little depth, presumably deliberately - you can shift the crayons around, but ultimately you're never going to want to end them early nor have more than a couple of ruins leeway/2m. That combined with the high mobility on this new summoner is also an issue - I don't think many would say black mage's difficulty lies in its rotation, but more about maintaining it throughout the combat encounter. If new summoner is to be this simple it cannot be this mobile.

Aetherflow being vestigial rather than a core mechanic doesn't help either - most dps have at least two resources to manage, usually 3. (mch has heat/battery, sam sen/kenki(lmao)/positionals, war tank responsibilities/beast gauge/infuriate timer, scholar aetherflow/healer resources/fey gauge(lmao) or bio timer). Summoner barely has aetherflow, crayons are on rails and it's not like cast time really has to be taken into consideration.

The pet also being vestigial rather than a core mechanic doesn't sit well either. What is its point anymore? It doesn't auto attack, it barely even pretends to exist - they even patched out its ability to cast searing light during asphodelos.

The fact that a job where the skill floor and ceiling weren't the same line was sacrificed for this is just further insult - although in fairness there seems to have been a fair amount of that across the board.

I've been over this before so sorry if this sounds uninterested and I'm pretty sure there's some points I've forgotten to mention.

no no, you're all good. honestly even as someone who enjoys the new summoner i get where you're coming from. and a lot of my personal ideas for this class is mainly just riding out on hope that they'll actually do something with it unlike with MCH.

funnily enough, your argument of designing it for little to no room for growth was i think the same reason they gave for changing it around in the first place. they thought that the DoT and beastmaster stuff was reaching a point of being a hassle to try and code or balance properly, i think?

but at the same time, i feel like new SMN probably would benefit from having more to manage between summons. granted this sounds odd I'm sure, but the main issue would putting room for such management, cause i don't think there is a lot of room to work with if you're doing things "properly" (like full on, demi-summon straight to elementals, elementals one after another, immediately popping energy drain and aetherflow stacks alongside searing light. not a lot of room to put a little extra in). so...maybe having the summons have their own CD where you have a 15 second window or so to try and put more in? could have carbuncle stuff or something for that at least.

[Ggwppino]

The way it has been redesigned leaves little to no room for growth

I do not agree. Currently the smn is in a state of sad incompleteness, they gave it the core but it lacks the resources to manage. Adding them and maybe fixing also the level progression which is currently as ridiculous as its 90 status.

The pet also being vestigial rather than a core mechanic doesn't sit well either. What is its point anymore? It doesn't auto attack, it barely even pretends to exist - they even patched out its ability to cast searing light during asphodelos.

Yeah. From my point of view, the pet is one of the key points to make smn less boring. If only they freed it from other summons, it would have infinite potential, currently it's decorative. Managing pet placement is one of the things I miss the most.

The fact that a job where the skill floor and ceiling weren't the same line was sacrificed for this is just further insult.

This is the serious point. They spat in the face of those who play the class. But it's actually spitting in any player's face. As I wrote a few previous posts ago (Here) is a static class that does not provide that the player can improve. This class is frightening from how wrong it is in so many ways.

[Raikai]

The way it has been redesigned leaves little to no room for growth - what can realistically be added to it without heavily restructuring the rotation?

The job currently has very little depth, presumably deliberately - you can shift the crayons around, but ultimately you're never going to want to end them early nor have more than a couple of ruins leeway/2m. That combined with the high mobility on this new summoner is also an issue - I don't think many would say black mage's difficulty lies in its rotation, but more about maintaining it throughout the combat encounter. If new summoner is to be this simple it cannot be this mobile.

Aetherflow being vestigial rather than a core mechanic doesn't help either - most dps have at least two resources to manage, usually 3. (mch has heat/battery, sam sen/kenki(lmao)/positionals, war tank responsibilities/beast gauge/infuriate timer, scholar aetherflow/healer resources/fey gauge(lmao) or bio timer). Summoner barely has aetherflow, crayons are on rails and it's not like cast time really has to be taken into consideration.

The pet also being vestigial rather than a core mechanic doesn't sit well either. What is its point anymore? It doesn't auto attack, it barely even pretends to exist - they even patched out its ability to cast searing light during asphodelos.

The fact that a job where the skill floor and ceiling weren't the same line was sacrificed for this is just further insult - although in fairness there seems to have been a fair amount of that across the board.

I've been over this before so sorry if this sounds uninterested and I'm pretty sure there's some points I've forgotten to mention.

I really disagree on the first statement of no room for growth... Feature-wise, they literally have the remaining elements (Water, Ice and Lightning) to add as gemstones. I would guess that is a pretty obvious path to add a trait, post level 90, to change the gemstones to those new ones whenever you enter Phoenix phase.

There they have growth room and can, for example, re-introduce a heavier cast time oriented play there as opposed to the first set having most insta casts.

This probably wouldnt do much to address the job's lack of depth, though. For that, and the only thing I believe it need to be revised (like you said) is Aetherflow feeling like a leftover (both mechanically and thematically) from the previous Summoner. If they choose to rework that aspect, there is a fine point to add job depth if they find a way to make Aetherflow interact more distinctively with the gemstone rotation, or the demis.

I think that, like MCH, thematically SMN is in a great spot. But mechanically it feels like a level 70 job playing at 90.

edit: Forgot to mention the Carbuncle.

For me... either make Summon Carbuncle entirely cosmetic and optional or find a way to re-incorporate the pet in combat.

If they absolutely have to remain as they are... at the very least make it auto-attack, like Eos auto-heals. A tiny contribution to the dps, but at the very least it would make the little thing something more than just a hindrance for your personal shield.

[Chasingstars]

If they absolutely have to remain as they are... at the very least make it auto-attack, like Eos auto-heals. A tiny contribution to the dps, but at the very least it would make the little thing something more than just a hindrance for your personal shield.

Could be like something like a 50 potency attack the carbuncle does each time you attack, functioning like the demis. As it will have some contributioning DPS post demis.

[Ggwppino]

I really disagree on the first statement of no room for growth... Feature-wise, they literally have the remaining elements (Water, Ice and Lightning) to add as gemstones. I would guess that is a pretty obvious path to add a trait, post level 90, to change the gemstones to those new ones whenever you enter Phoenix phase.

There they have growth room and can, for example, re-introduce a heavier cast time oriented play there as opposed to the first set having most insta casts.

Frankly, I can't find any pros. If they do something like this it will really be the right time for this class to drop and I'm going to play summoner in rotmg. What is the sense of adding elementals after phoenix? No one, it wouldn't change anything. You would still have to press the buttons when they light up. It just makes it difficult for the level designer to structure a raid based on a 2 minute caster rotation. I really don't think they shoot themselves in the foot.
If you have to add cast time you add it in the one-minute rotation, but otherwise it means nothing to have one minute where you can move freely and one minute where you are petrified to be a statue. It would just be unbalanced. If new elementals are to be added, welcome, but they must be added knowledgeably.

When Fulminating says there is no room for growth he is partly right and partly not, because the core of the class is there and that is what you have and if there is no rework of the core it is difficult to improve it, however something could be built around it. What the smn lacks is managing something, currently it presses keys because they light up and the player is not driven to play for knowledge. Designers can work on the carbuncle, which is now getting mold, and it could really be the work on him that saves the job. Designers can work on contrivances that get the player to use at least one neuron, at least one. Even with this core.

[Whalaqee]

What is the sense of adding elementals after phoenix?

Fleshing out a job fantasy of being a summoner from a thematic and mechanical standpoint. Likewise the same for Demis that could add even more primals. Or new traits that modify existing abilities like fester or aetherflow or physik to give them a more primal feel.

[Ggwppino]

Fleshing out a job fantasy of being a summoner from a thematic and mechanical standpoint. Likewise the same for Demis that could add even more primals. Or new traits that modify existing abilities like fester or aetherflow or physik to give them a more primal feel.

You changed the color of your spells. Now?
It should be functional to add elementals and it should be compatible with the game. If you want to make them different from the other 3 elementals, you are doubling the rotation: it doesn't change anything to you because you press the single button when it light up and scratch with the other hand remaining the same boredom, but it changes completely for the designers who have to think about balancing the raid mechanics just for the summoner. We are talking about a video game not a fireworks show. New summons are always welcome, but they have to be put in a way that is compatible in context. I don't want to sound rude, but sometimes the simplest thing that comes to mind is not always the right thing.