Inconsistencies with the sundering (Spoilers)

[Kes13a]

you are all kind of overlooking something important. time frame.

for us, it took a couple days/weeks, whatever time frame you want to apply to it.

But Zodiark wasnt created the day after we left, we have no reference how long the time span was between us leaving and the creation of Zodiark, who was created to hold the world together, not fight Metion.. who no one knew about except Venat.

in the end, we have no idea how strong Metion may have been by the time Zodiark was created. Dynamis may be weaker, but she is also drawing it from the entire universe... not one planet. So I think this whole "1/4 of Zodiarks strength should have been enough to overpower Metion" is conjecture. we have no actual way of knowing. In the defense of the star, "compression" of the shell Zodiark provided could have made it stronger, but who knows.

[KageTokage]

These threads always read like some CinemaSins "just fly the ring to Mordor on eagles and the whole story is over. PROBLEM SOLVED!" It just reminds me that the modern media consumer has zero interest in what stories are about, and would rather meticulously dissect the physics "rules" of magic.

It's because the reasons the story uses to try to argue that there was "no other way" are not exactly rock solid, and are also trying to be used as a defense for having to cause the end of the world as man once knew it.

I told myself back in Shadowbringers that if the Sundering was intentional, it would've had to have been for a really, really good reason for me to find it a moral course of action, but in the end, it was fueled by naught but "maybes" and knowledge that the future we came from was acceptable, if not preferable by Venat's standards.

Dynamis? She admits to having only a "basic" understanding of it, then Beyond the Rift delves into the notion of how the "strength to overcome despair" she sought to cultivate was arbitrary and unfathomable. Not to mention she is only enlightened as to the terrible negative effects dynamis is capable of having on sundered beings, so taking the "fight fire with fire" approach by sending people who can influence dynamis after Meteion was strictly a gamble.

Mankind ending themselves in the pursuit of perfection? The third sacrifice was plainly stated back in ShB to be a terminal point where the Convocation intended to simply resume their way of life as best they could once the sacrificed were restored. Perhaps they might have gone down that path, but it makes no sense to pre-emptively lay waste to everything before things even started going in a bad direction; much less so when it's made clear that the actual sacrifices involved were not the true concern.


There are so many problems I have with basically every aspect of Venat's framing/decisions from everything post-Ktisis up to the present...but I could've been more okay with it if they hadn't doubled down on trying to push her as the absolutely righteous moral authority instead of someone who simply made a selfish, questionably reasoned choice to impose her ideology on the world and that it ended up working out in the end.

[Gemina]

you are all kind of overlooking something important. time frame.

for us, it took a couple days/weeks, whatever time frame you want to apply to it.

But Zodiark wasnt created the day after we left, we have no reference how long the time span was between us leaving and the creation of Zodiark, who was created to hold the world together, not fight Metion.. who no one knew about except Venat.

in the end, we have no idea how strong Metion may have been by the time Zodiark was created. Dynamis may be weaker, but she is also drawing it from the entire universe... not one planet. So I think this whole "1/4 of Zodiarks strength should have been enough to overpower Metion" is conjecture. we have no actual way of knowing. In the defense of the star, "compression" of the shell Zodiark provided could have made it stronger, but who knows.

It doesn't matter all that much because in the present day we know that a sundered Zodiark whom is seven times restored was keeping the Final Days at bay. However, he was also doing this when all of the source's reflections were intact [before any rejoinings]. Both Zodiark and Meteion were gaining in strength as time passed. Even with around the entire universe being comprised of around 67% dynamis, Meteion still could not eliminate Etheirys off the cosmic map solely due to Zodiark's existence.

I think what does get overlooked is that the sundering was not executed to stop the Final Days. It was done to stop the sacrifices to Zodiark, and by extension Zodiark himself. Venat definitely never meant to kill him, but it was also very likely that she wasn't even capable of doing so. She basically admits this, and says the best she could hope for was to imprison him. The watcher also confirms that due to the sacrifices of over half the population made to him, Zodiark was far more powerful than Hydaelyn.

Simply put, Zodiark is an aetheric beast of incomprehensible strength.

[Kazhar]

I think what does get overlooked is that the sundering was not executed to stop the Final Days. It was done to stop the sacrifices to Zodiark, and by extension Zodiark himself.

It wasn't done to stop the sacrifices. At least, it wasn't the primary motivation.

Q: Venat had good intentions and her plan worked out in the end, but as a result, the world was sundered and most of the Ancients suffered for it. Was sundering the star really the only way to save it?

A: At the very least, as Y’shtola theorized, Venat believed the Ancients were too dense in aether to control dynamis and stop the Final Days at its source. Perhaps she also believed the Ancients would be unable to change as a people and were doomed to become their own undoing. Therefore, I believe she chose to sunder the star and dilute mankind’s aether, so that someday they might be capable of fighting against despair.

As she said herself, Venat’s actions are not a simple matter of good or evil, and she agonized over it for eons. In a sense, Venat’s very decision to sunder the star makes me think that she too, was an Ancient herself.
Normally, I think it would be impossible for someone to make that kind of choice, but similar to the ways in which Emet-Selch and Hermes evaluated mankind, this was Venat’s way of passing judgment.

Emet-Selch and Elidibus believed the sacrifices were the primary motivation but this isn't what's talked about when we see Venat's followers in patch 5.2. They seemed more concerned with the idea that their civilization was headed to downfall (which is consistent with the above Yoshi-P's quote and Venat's stated motivations during her metaphorical flashback.)

[SannaR]

Still everything you said doesn't make it impossible (in an alternate ending for the story) for venat to change her decision to confront all three, especially under extenuating circumstances, or for the ancients to figure out a way to either "use a bunch of aether to travel to the far reaches of the universe or create beings capable of manipulating dynamis while also not knowing what Meteion would throw at them." Yes there are many hurdles to accomplishing these things but they are not completely impossible. Like I said this would be a major deviation from the game's actual story but part of the purpose of this thread is to discuss alternate paths for the game's story.

Here's the thing though. This theory and alternate paths has been discussed seven ways til Sunday and then some. To the point that the 700+ page thread has gone from but what about X and Venat is a total B to people nitpicking about how this part of the story let alone the entire 6.0 story looks like through various philosophical lenses. You're just joining in very late. So late that some are trying to point out the myriad of ways the Ancients would have had a rough time or how other options had a slimmer chance at success than the one the story gave us did while trying to still be polite. All the while you seem to be wanting to ignore those or try and shoot them down. It's why I said what I did earlier. That death itself has forgotten what state of being alive this particular horse is in cause it has thrown their hands up and walked away. This has been discussed so much I'm surprised no one has come in here with a popcorn eating gif and some form of the "Oh sh*t here we go again" meme. If not a "How many times do we gotta teach you old man?"

[Gemina]

It wasn't done to stop the sacrifices. At least, it wasn't the primary motivation.



Emet-Selch and Elidibus believed the sacrifices were the primary motivation but this isn't what's talked about when we see Venat's followers in patch 5.2. They seemed more concerned with the idea that their civilization was headed to downfall (which is consistent with the above Yoshi-P's quote and Venat's stated motivations during her metaphorical flashback.)

I just don't buy it. None of it, and feel that this is a deflection so Venat isn't demonized, which is clearly what the dev team did not want. With the information she had, Venat knew that mankind's aether is capable of stopping Dynamis in its tracks. As was the case with the summoning of Zodiark. She had no information whatsoever that dynamis could be used to combat dynamis, and sundering all the aether on Etheirys would somehow miraculously grant mankind the ability to manipulate it. That's a haymaker.

Furthermore, Venat did not have to wait for the summoning of Zodiark to enact her plan. However, doing so prior would alter the timeline and that was something she promised the WoL she would not do. However, she was always curious as to what drove her to such lengths to become Hydaelyn and genocide her own people and all life on the star. She eventually found out, and it was the sacrifices. Ironically enough, it was her own despair that motivated her to perform the sundering. Emet Selch and Elidibus were correct.

Again, the Final Days was already halted. When Hydaelyn occupies Krile's body in Garlemald, she admits to the WoL that she only hoped to imprison Zodiark for a time, and knew it was temporary. He was just too strong, which suggests that she didn't even do battle with him. Venat became Hydaelyn and in her first act as the godly primal, she sundered him and all of Etheirys. I do agree with Yoshi that this was Venat's way of passing judgment, which she did on her own people. That's a bit different than Emet's judgment of what became of them. They did not want to demonize Venat, but for a large portion of the playerbase, they failed in that regard.

[PeaTearGriffin]

Here's the thing though. This theory and alternate paths has been discussed seven ways til Sunday and then some. To the point that the 700+ page thread has gone from but what about X and Venat is a total B to people nitpicking about how this part of the story let alone the entire 6.0 story looks like through various philosophical lenses. You're just joining in very late. So late that some are trying to point out the myriad of ways the Ancients would have had a rough time or how other options had a slimmer chance at success than the one the story gave us did while trying to still be polite. All the while you seem to be wanting to ignore those or try and shoot them down. It's why I said what I did earlier. That death itself has forgotten what state of being alive this particular horse is in cause it has thrown their hands up and walked away. This has been discussed so much I'm surprised no one has come in here with a popcorn eating gif and some form of the "Oh sh*t here we go again" meme. If not a "How many times do we gotta teach you old man?"

That very well may be so because I didn't start watching endwalker msq till only a week ago, so I'm sure there's been plenty of discourse about the story ever since the game was released. But still, I'm going to come to the forums to discuss the story, and to be completely blunt, I'm going to discuss the story in any way I want. Usually on video game forums like these, people are free to chat about other topics, like what the game could've been or how the story could've been better, no matter how many threads have been created before and after. People are free to take part in these discussions and they're also free not to.

[PeaTearGriffin]

There are so many problems I have with basically every aspect of Venat's framing/decisions from everything post-Ktisis up to the present...but I could've been more okay with it if they hadn't doubled down on trying to push her as the absolutely righteous moral authority instead of someone who simply made a selfish, questionably reasoned choice to impose her ideology on the world and that it ended up working out in the end.

And that's another thing that makes venat's choice to sunder etheirys even more confusing. The evidence she had at that point from the WoL's account of what was happening in the current timeline was that sundered people in thavnair were still unable to control dynamis and were turning into blasphemies left and right. After hearing that she still thought it was a good idea to sunder etheirys?

I've seen someone mention before that part of venat's reason for sundering etheirys was because she needed less aetherically dense beings who could use dynamis to kill meteion, but how is that a good decision if the WoL told her that after zodiark was destroyed in the current timeline a second final days started happening and people were turning into blasphemies? That's just a completely terrible gamble to make where the odds were stacked against her. The fact that her plan worked was sheer blind luck as well as a generous amount of help from the writers in the form of plot armor.

[SannaR]

That very well may be so because I didn't start watching endwalker msq till only a week ago, so I'm sure there's been plenty of discourse about the story ever since the game was released. But still, I'm going to come to the forums to discuss the story, and to be completely blunt, I'm going to discuss the story in any way I want. Usually on video game forums like these, people are free to chat about other topics, like what the game could've been or how the story could've been better, no matter how many threads have been created before and after. People are free to take part in these discussions and they're also free not to.

Which is fine, but you're behaving as this fan theory that isn't yours but a friend's unless I'm mistaken as something new and unique. While also trying to do the same thing you accuse others of doing just because they don't want to talk about a theory. You also seem to not understand how much aether is needed to get to the ends of the universe. It'd be like expecting a 1930s Woodie to get you to the moon and back with just regular diesel gas. It took over 12 thousand years of collected aether to get a small ship carrying about 14 people there. I'm not sure the aether needed included coming back in the calculations or not.

Meanwhile you're there going I'm sure Hydelean a being that yes is bigger and more powerful than let's say Ramuh who when summoned ate 12 unsundered beings could just fly there. When we know that two unsundered beings that flew from somewhere around the Dragon Star or the Alpha star made it to Etheryis on basically fumes. Omega was severely damaged to the point on the way here had to systematically shut down their other systems. Midgardsormr lost their firey mane and went to sleep guarding Silver Tear lake soon after.

Then there's Zodiark who couldn't jump start one planet's ecosystem without half of the population after its first summoning was also sacrificed. Sure he didn't use up all their aether due to them still being semi alive inside of him. Yet think of how many more would have to die or how much time they'd have to spend getting enough energy let alone making an even bigger guess as to how do you fight something that if it wanted to could go invisible to your senses if you didn't make things that could track it without the use of aether.

People turned into Blasphemies after Zodiark died because of the thinness of aether. It's the same reason why the Ancients themselves weren't and couldn't be affected by the song of Oblivion yet their creations were. It's because their creations are naturally thinner in aether.

[PeaTearGriffin]

Which is fine, but you're behaving as this fan theory that isn't yours but a friend's unless I'm mistaken as something new and unique.

If you're admitting that it's fine then let it be. Simple as that. I know this fan theory might not be new or unique. I even acknowledged that earlier by saying "I'm sure there's been plenty of discourse about the story ever since the game was released" implying that the alternate fan theories I mentioned may have already been said. But that doesn't mean I can't talk about it on the forums here.

You also seem to not understand how much aether is needed to get to the ends of the universe. It'd be like expecting a 1930s Woodie to get you to the moon and back with just regular diesel gas.

But lets not forget that unsundered etheirys and its inhabitants are a lot more aetherically dense than the sundered world. Sure it may take 12,000 years for the sundered to collect that much aether but what about the unsundered? It could take dramatically less time for them to do so, and what would be the huge deal if it did take a lot of time?

Meanwhile you're there going I'm sure Hydelean a being that yes is bigger and more powerful than let's say Ramuh who when summoned ate 12 unsundered beings could just fly there. When we know that two unsundered beings that flew from somewhere around the Dragon Star or the Alpha star made it to Etheryis on basically fumes. Omega was severely damaged to the point on the way here had to systematically shut down their other systems. Midgardsormr lost their firey mane and went to sleep guarding Silver Tear lake soon after.

Someone else made this suggestion. The only thought I really had on this idea was that it would be a pretty cool cutscene if Hydaelyn flew out and killed meteion herself.

Then there's Zodiark who couldn't jump start one planet's ecosystem without half of the population after its first summoning was also sacrificed.

Yes, this makes sense for the actual game's story, but I was talking with another forum member about an alternate reality where Zodiark was much much more powerful and naturally had a lot more aether.

People turned into Blasphemies after Zodiark died because of the thinness of aether. It's the same reason why the Ancients themselves weren't and couldn't be affected by the song of Oblivion yet their creations were. It's because their creations are naturally thinner in aether.

Yes, that's correct. The thinness of their aether allowed them to be affected by dynamis more, as opposed to the ancients who had a lot more aether and couldn't be directly affected by dynamis but their creation magics were.