Far Northern Attire

[Iscah]

Saying this generically, because I don't have any of the knowledge of what they actually do besides make demands when their culture is portrayed in media.

BUT. The mere fact that they are seeking money does not immediately make them the villain. It depends what they want or indeed need the money for. If they want they money to do what they can to safeguard their culture, that's a very different thing to seeking it for personal profit.

[Mosha]

Saying this generically, because I don't have any of the knowledge of what they actually do besides make demands when their culture is portrayed in media.

BUT. The mere fact that they are seeking money does not immediately make them the villain. It depends what they want or indeed need the money for. If they want they money to do what they can to safeguard their culture, that's a very different thing to seeking it for personal profit.

Most live in Sweden or Finland some of the most progressive nations on the planet, the only problem country would be Russia since Saami live there too.

[Mikey_R]

Saying this generically, because I don't have any of the knowledge of what they actually do besides make demands when their culture is portrayed in media.

BUT. The mere fact that they are seeking money does not immediately make them the villain. It depends what they want or indeed need the money for. If they want they money to do what they can to safeguard their culture, that's a very different thing to seeking it for personal profit.

The thing is, it isn't just about this, it is about what sort of an example this represents. Say they do get money, this opens up avenues for other groups of people to say, you took our culture, give us money. Would a Western media company have to pay someone if they wanted to portray Japanese people in Kimonos, as an example? Which then goes onto, who would they even pay? Which then raises the other question, who is this group that is demanding money from SE? They say they are a 'council', but, in this very thread, there are examples of people who are either closely tied into the culture, or are even from it, saying they do not care that the item in question exists and actually like the fact it is in the game. So clearly this 'council' doesn't necessarily represent the people. Have they had a vote as to this issue? Do the people even really care?

By now, everyone knows this is just a way for them to get money and I guarantee this was partially fuelled by Disney giving them some. If I can get it from Disney, maybe we can try and extort money from other big companies. This was never about the clothes, this was about money, plain and simple.

[Melorie]

As someone that follows closely indigenous movements from a lot of different parts of the world, although I'm not familiar with the Saami situation or culture, it is truly amazing how people defend and act like companies should be able to use a traditional attire/symbols and gain money from them without EVER involving these groups into the discussion. Just grabbing the aesthetic and using it for profit.

Far worse is the amount of people that are quickly to defend SE using traditional attires to make money but turning the moral compass when it comes to cultural institutions that are made from the people that keep this culture alive and pass on the ancestral knowledge wants the same. You don't even KNOW the moral and values of those that participate in the institution, yet you're certain that they're greedy people that have no point or argument that's valuable to discussion.

It's kinda ridiculous. You treat the institution as some sort of greedy villains, band of thugs that only care about money and you don't bat an eye for this huge gaming company that could be doing better when it comes to dealing with cultural symbols.

Weird to see how for some, their 18 usd 3d clothing for their virtual catgirl is more important than any discussion regarding how we should approach cultural representation and how we are able to do it in a way that includes and promotes those that keep that same culture alive. Imagine being this self-centered.

[Mikey_R]

As someone that follows closely indigenous movements from a lot of different parts of the world, although I'm not familiar with the Saami situation or culture, it is truly amazing how people defend and act like companies should be able to use a traditional attire/symbols and gain money from them without EVER involving these groups into the discussion. Just grabbing the aesthetic and using it for profit.

Far worse is the amount of people that are quickly to defend SE using traditional attires to make money but turning the moral compass when it comes to cultural institutions that are made from the people that keep this culture alive and pass on the ancestral knowledge wants the same. You don't even KNOW the moral and values of those that participate in the institution, yet you're certain that they're greedy people that have no point or argument that's valuable to discussion.

It's kinda ridiculous. You treat the institution as some sort of greedy villains, band of thugs that only care about money and you don't bat an eye for this huge gaming company that could be doing better when it comes to dealing with cultural symbols.

Weird to see how for some, their 18 usd 3d clothing for their virtual catgirl is more important than any discussion regarding how we should approach cultural representation and how we are able to do it in a way that includes and promotes those that keep that same culture alive. Imagine being this self-centered.

As a counter point. If you want people to appreciate a culture more, do you not think it would be a good idea to promote it? Rather than going in guns blazing about money, why not take the opportunity to educate people. Something along the lines of, look, this game has added something related to our culture, here is a brief lesson in how this is important to us and what it represents. However, they have not done that on 2 occasions. They have gone in with the aim of getting money, which is exactly the same mentality as the one they are attempting to get money from.

However, that still does not answer the important question, why is this not the case for other forms of cultural wear? Kimonos are very iconic from a Japanese culture point of view, however, you don't see any Japanese people wanting royalties from someone else who is using it in their media, western or otherwise.

Plus, as has been mentioned, there are those out there who do not care that it is in the game and appreciate that a part of their culture has been represented, so again, who does this entity speak for and how have they come to the decision.

So, until the above points can be countered with a reasonable explanation, the only conclusion is, just like everyone else, they are driven by money, being spurred on by the fact Disney let them get away with it.

[Melorie]

So, are you arguing that using something from a culture without acknowledging the culture is actively harming said culture?

Well, yes? Should all symbols be stripped of meaning and associations with that particular group of people that actually maintained that culture and be used just as aesthetics? Do you think that transforming these traditions into something hollow as an aesthetic is saving that culture?

For example, in Brazil, it's not uncommon to see people using the Cocar as decorations for their living room. A Cocar is a sacred symbol for many different groups of indigenous people, and it's being banalized and used as a decoration. People have been mass-killing the sacred birds in order to mass produce cocars with their feathers, and the money made from selling them often doesn't get back to the indigenous groups. At all. If you follow any indigenous organization you'll see this discussion over and over again, and how they suffer with this.

The same happens with many other things: technology, knowledge of the plants/medicine, techniques for dealing with textiles, art, etc.

Is that the same things as an online game clothing? No. But transforming traditional things into a pure aesthetic without the involvement of these groups... Well, is quite similar. It's the same process over and over again. The same mindset. This is not effective into celebrating culture.

A good example is the recent Prey movie. Which was made involving native americans in the entire production: writing, research, actors, etc. The quality is clearly different, regardless if you enjoy it. You end up being able to celebrate a culture with the same people that make this culture alive, today, and compensate them for it. It's not hard to do this today, to actually open up space for dialogue and discussion instead of taking whatever you find pretty for yourself.

As a counter point. If you want people to appreciate a culture more, do you not think it would be a good idea to promote it? Rather than going in guns blazing about money, why not take the opportunity to educate people. Something along the lines of, look, this game has added something related to our culture, here is a brief lesson in how this is important to us and what it represents. However, they have not done that on 2 occasions. They have gone in with the aim of getting money, which is exactly the same mentality as the one they are attempting to get money from.
.

In the world we live in, a game using your culture to generate money for it is far from representation. You know what's representation? Saami people sharing the profits from the mogstation, Saami artists being involved into the writing of the description or even the concept art. Speaking with cultural institutions from Saami people to know the best path ahead that can make this representation USEFUL for the people that actually make this culture alive and real and holds the knowledge of these traditions. Feeling like a game is doing good because it's getting profit from your traditional clothing without involving you in the process is a stretch.

I feel like there's plenty of discussion regarding kimonos and how you have games that dilute a culture and create a banal impression of it, even a sort of fetishization, especially when it comes to japanese culture. Have you ever searched for this? This happens a lot with japanese references in western media. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I'm not saying that getting money is ALWAYS the answer, but the clothing is at the mogstation, there wasn't a discussion before on how to include these people in the artistic process, financial compensation doesn't impress me as a given solution.

Indigenous group are not a monolith (or any group of people, really). They don't all think the same. Many people will probably not care. However that doesn't mean that cultural institutions hold no value or place in the discussion. You still don't have the right to tax people as greedy just because someone did not answer all your questions, that's quite childish. You might not agree with them completely but assuming they're greedy just because they're talking about money is a bit too much.

[Boblawblah]

Well, yes? Should all symbols be stripped of meaning and associations with that particular group of people that actually maintained that culture and be used just as aesthetics? Do you think that transforming these traditions into something hollow as an aesthetic is saving that culture?

I can respect your opinion, but I don't agree that a culture is being harmed here.

[Melorie]

I can respect your opinion, but I don't agree that a culture is being harmed here.

Harm is a strong word. My point is: there are many ways of companies bring representation to their products that are more useful to everyone involved. After all, a different process of creating these pieces can make a difference in the way we consume these traditions. And at the end of the day, this mindset of turning everything in an aesthetic which you can profit from IS harmful.

Nothing was killed for the creation of a pixel sherpa hat, no harm comes from a rando in limsa wearing the set.

Zzzz. You clearly don't get my point. Which is how turning traditional atttires, patterns and symbols into a hollow aesthetic is what fuels worse actions against these cultures.

[Boblawblah]

As someone that follows closely indigenous movements from a lot of different parts of the world, although I'm not familiar with the Saami situation or culture, it is truly amazing how people defend and act like companies should be able to use a traditional attire/symbols and gain money from them without EVER involving these groups into the discussion. Just grabbing the aesthetic and using it for profit.

Far worse is the amount of people that are quickly to defend SE using traditional attires to make money but turning the moral compass when it comes to cultural institutions that are made from the people that keep this culture alive and pass on the ancestral knowledge wants the same. You don't even KNOW the moral and values of those that participate in the institution, yet you're certain that they're greedy people that have no point or argument that's valuable to discussion.

It's kinda ridiculous. You treat the institution as some sort of greedy villains, band of thugs that only care about money and you don't bat an eye for this huge gaming company that could be doing better when it comes to dealing with cultural symbols.

Weird to see how for some, their 18 usd 3d clothing for their virtual catgirl is more important than any discussion regarding how we should approach cultural representation and how we are able to do it in a way that includes and promotes those that keep that same culture alive. Imagine being this self-centered.

So, are you arguing that using something from a culture without acknowledging the culture is actively harming said culture?