Inevitable Job Simplifications?

[CelestiCer]

To the points " Valence " made I agree.

Players tend to have a favorite Job they Main. Having said Job be ruined with changes/remakes? in gameplay, feel, flare, complexity, the Fantasy of its gameplay in a game called Final Fantasy, everything that made it Click and taking that away? is akin to killing the passion out of players. And somehow... this is viewed as being good for the game...

Lets say going 100 miles an hour is the Skill Ceiling. Do you need to go 100 miles to reach your destination in anything below Extreme? No... most content is not a race, but a stroll. No Deadlines. Just don't crash while you go 1 mile an hour. This is the The Skill-Floor. Slow? Sure, but that's the bar Square sets. Even in Ultimate the entire party doesn't' need to perfectly execute their Jobs at 100% percentile to clear it. What many players are asking is reaching 80 miles made exciting, that optional performance perhaps rewarded with tiny extra mile. And not through the Roads, but in what we pilot - " Our Jobs ", that makes every Road exciting and fun.


Players can demand the environment to be more hazardous as much as they want, sure. Once I dislike or have less fun piloting my Job however? The scenery becomes more and more irrelevant to me. Nothing is as fun anymore. And for many? Not as Fun as it used to be.

I wish to call it " Toxic-Casualism ", where any ounce of complexity is a ounce to much. In fear of ruining their... ugh... Guildhest? experience? Players already do not make full use of their Job's skill kit even in Savage let alone Dungeon roulettes. Having a tiny bit of Extra flare or flavor, is not going to hurt anyone.

But just like PF? many do not like " Seasoning ".

[Sparkthor]

Even by reading all post, I really struggle to find the past game more complex/deep other than more messy and tidious.

Can someone take some time to explain what they mean by "Simplification" ? Maybe we just disagree, or maybe we didn't talk about the same things.

[CelestiCer]

Even by reading all post, I really struggle to find the past game more complex/deep other than more messy and tidious.

Can someone take some time to explain what they mean by "Simplification" ? Maybe we just disagree, or maybe we didn't talk about the same things.

" Simplifications ".
Anything that makes a Job easier to play/execute/perform well on regardless of Content. Taking away nuances/flare/flavor not for the sake of a Job needing it to clear Content? but just because it makes it easier for both the players and probably easier to manage regarding Job balance for the dev's at the cost of " Fun " at any content.

" Example "
I started at the End of ShadowBringers Expansion, with Samurai becoming my favorite job. I'll give the Samurai POV of simplifications regarding what I have experienced.

• Seigan Removed upon Third Eye proc
• Positionals no longer grants Kenki but Bonus Damage
• Senei now costs 25 Kenki instead of 50
• Third Eye duration increased by 1 second
• Iaijutsu range buffed and increased
• Fuga turned into Fuko, easier to handle Circle AOE
• Kaiten removed, Shinten spamming

7 Simplifications I witnessed. Now we can view plenty as positive QOL and some were needed... Ultimately? Samurai = Easier, and made Easier and Easier and Easier... it takes away the fun of mastering a Job or heck it makes it pointless to do so.

And this is just SAM, we didn't even get the SMN treatment. Square even said DRG and AST are up next so who knows. Then they shifted to PLD , although that seems positively received ( <- not sure on this ). WHM never got anything other then Glare and some have been yearning for something more then that, even as optional not on another healing Job but their favorite healer Job.

If you really really go far back into the past? apparently you have Bozja/Zadnor like skills that jobs used to have. Cleric Stance and really archaic designs. I personally am not asking to go that far back, I am just wanting Jobs to stop receiving simplifications or nuances ripped away from them and given some ounce of depth.

Aside from the 2 min burst window streamlining? This is just Job Design, we're not even at the Fight Design topic of removing all positionals and the gigantic hitboxes bosses gained where MaxMelee is given on a silver-platter which probably is an entire separate topic from this thread, but its kinda related.

You can definitely find simplifications from every Job that I am sure other posters can share regarding what they have experienced. Perhaps BLM has at least retained the most complexity and lost the least regarding being hit with simplifications.

[Connor]

I feel like ‘simplification’ maybe isn’t the right way of phrasing this issue. It’s more like the jobs have been like, hollowed out? They’ve cut out so many of the things that made jobs fun and unique for the sake of balance, so now they’re just shells with nothing beneath the layers.

I think ‘simplification’ isn’t inherently a bad thing. Rather, it’s the ‘hollowing things out for the sake for simplification’ that’s the issue. And I think a lot of that is related to their overwhelming desperation for absolute job balance (which, mathematically, is nigh impossible unless all jobs are reduced to a single button with the same fixed attack potency, as far as I understand it).

I think it’s possible for the jobs to be both ‘simple and engaging’, or ‘simple and fun’. Complexity itself doesn’t inherently make something fun, just like simplicity doesn’t.

Also frankly, I feel like they’ve always had fairly unfair view of what players need to consider a job ‘simplistic’. I don’t think we’re so uneducated that we can’t understand the difference between abilities, or that we’re not capable of managing things like DoTs, buffs or debuffs. Part of the reason I think ffxiv’s ‘simplification’ has gone down so poorly is that they’re not listening and simplifying all the wrong things

[Sqwall]

The counterargument to support it? Complex Job rotations restricts Fight designs and mechanics. And I disagree...

Giving up Job gameplay/flavor/uniqueness...

• Simplify every combo
• Do away with every pet
• Kill Dots, to hard for the Dev's to manage
• Resource management dumbed down
• All AoE's become a Circle
• Reduce buttons cause Button bloat
• Remove Positionals
• Take the 2 min buffs and choke on it

Simplify-Homogenize-Rework-Optimize...
To the point jobs and their gameplay become unrecognizable. In exchange for the empty promise of better unique harder fight designs. Right...

I don't know man....I keep thinking of P8S Phase1 and Phase 2....

Picture the Heavensward rotation and job design during that fight....and all I can think of is that fight would be just a boring Savage. The complexity of the fight would need to be dumbed down just so average players could even finish it. If you had an overly complex rotation and niche style gameplay it would seriously hamper the impeccable design of P8S...

I just don't know...that fight is ALMOST (not quite) touching Ultimate level mechanics. I would hate to see the fight become just less intense due to job design holding it back...it's incredibly tightly tuned....almost zero room for error...

I would MUCH rather have more interesting and difficult challenges then a job that is designed to be complex...just to be complex.

The encounter should be the obstacle....not the job getting in the way. I still have fun on WAR and PLD. Even though everyone thinks they are the exact same now...I feel the strategies that come with each compliment their play styles.
Inner Release doubling as an anti knock back during Centaur 1....or...
Blade Combo allowing me to position better during Four Fold Flames and Centaur 1 so that I can keep uptime.
Holmgang being used 2 times in phase 2 for the tank buster.

There are definite differences in the jobs and applications for certain fight mechanics...but not one can outshine the other. Speaking specifically about tanks...I can and HAVE run different tanks for a lot of fights. Each tank has a little to offer to each fight...no not one tank outshines the other.

[ZephyrMenodora]

When I started back in late StB/early ShB, I loved MNK because of its multiple oGCDs, the positionals forcing you to keep on the move, and, of course, because it fights bare-handed. Other than just feeling plain fun to me (I'm a sucker for anything that has you pressing buttons often), they also contributed to its job fantasy of being a fleet-footed, fast as hell underdog. Just a constant stream of damage that, while smaller than someone with a weapon, will add up in the long run.

In EW, I love monk because it fights bare-handed. That's it.

Streamlining gameplay is fine, but streamlining it to the point of removing parts of the job's identity (or making them outright unrecognizable like DRK or SMN) is going really overboard, and imo it has the potential to bite Square in the ass in the long run. If the fans' reaction to a rework of a job they love goes from "Oh, I'll miss current *job*, but I'm excited to see what they have in store for it!" to "please please don't make me hate it" is a sign that something's off.

Meanwhile I picked up Monk in EW as it's now a manageable DPS class for me now. I also dropped Summoner which was my primary DPS previously in ShB as it was a pain in the butt for the performance you got in return compared to other classes, and main it now.

[Sqwall]

Meanwhile I picked up Monk in EW as it's now a manageable DPS class for me now. I also dropped Summoner which was my primary DPS previously in ShB as it was a pain in the butt for the performance you got in return compared to other classes, and main it now.

I share the same points. There are some jobs that I have tried now do frustration from other jobs jank and clunkyness.

I figured this out when I realized how poorly MNK was designed from Heavensward to Endwalker after I tried out Red Mage. I literally couldn't' believe how well designed Red Mage was compared to Monk. If I could do just as much damage with considerably less effort...why the hell would I work harder???? If some people want to go crazy jumping through hoops just to say "i'm good at a complex job, and I work way harder then you. Praise me..." *confused clap*

I'm happier with Monk now...and it's WAY more fun to play. (also positionals need to die)

[CelestiCer]

I don't know man....I keep thinking of P8S Phase1 and Phase 2....

I disagree. If I apply at least Kaiten Samurai vs no Kaiten Samurai? I see no issue with any content atm available. But they could give way more then just that to other Jobs as well. I don't find P8S difficult, although week 1 it probably was. Not to mention that you said " not one tank outshines the other " ... well Statistically that's not true? specially not in Week 1 and that might also not be true currently in The Omega Protocol Ultimate.

Raiding makes up 5% of the game.
95% of all other PvE Combat activities has now become dull to me. Where as I enjoyed MSQ? I just skip it now. Fates? I stopped farming. Dungeons? I used to spam it, now I wanna skip it. My Job used to be way more fun and I know there are other players who felt like this for a long time about other jobs they main. You can throw the most difficult content at me... even P8S that you find so difficult? It's boring because my Job feels hollow. And that I have to get my excitement at Ultimate on strict hours, scheduled prog, joined Statics and etc etc. The good ol " Go play Ultimate ". I much rather have my Job be fun around any corner? vs dull and boring, but at least I get to do mechanics.

The only reason for me to raid is ...helpers high. The satisfaction of helping that's it.

[tearagion]

I don't know man....I keep thinking of P8S Phase1 and Phase 2....

Picture the Heavensward rotation and job design during that fight....and all I can think of is that fight would be just a boring Savage. The complexity of the fight would need to be dumbed down just so average players could even finish it. If you had an overly complex rotation and niche style gameplay it would seriously hamper the impeccable design of P8S...

How does that track? These have been 2 of the easiest tiers since deltascape lol. Maybe p8s edges out Kefka, it's been a while. What is there in p8s that's remotely challenging? Subjective, sure, but they are definitely not leveraging this "extra complexity space" you claim exists.

The encounter should be the obstacle....not the job getting in the way.

If you see performing well on a complex job as an obstacle, your perspective is completely and entirely removed from that of people who enjoy complex jobs. It's not an obstacle, or a hinderance, or whatever, it's fun.

I figured this out when I realized how poorly MNK was designed from Heavensward to Endwalker after I tried out Red Mage. I literally couldn't' believe how well designed Red Mage was compared to Monk. If I could do just as much damage with considerably less effort...why the hell would I work harder????

job requires little player input and is fun to me = well designed. bravo lol

[Jirah]

Jobs are just cog of the main framework. The juxtaposition between it and the varies instances and non-instance is what matters and to no surprise it’s still laughable bad.

A hard job on easy content may be decent as core content (story content) doesn’t require your all or any foreknowledge of your job to this day

A easy job on hard content is conundrum at first glance but if the fights don’t require high DPS but better cooperation and coordination than it’s still a fun experience

What we got is easy jobs (trivial even for SMN) on easy content. Not Toast with Butter and bacon and eggs but a plain white slice of bread on paste. Tank busters hardly harm, they reside the same stack markers that tickles you, the mechanics threat have been reduced by a lot and the window of execution is noticeably larger and for whose benefit?

Trials have evolved gracefully, NM trials have also been decent. Dungeons and 24 man have been in a downward course compared to its past incarnations with so many examples.

I didn’t talk about hardcore content like savage as that’s maybe 2% of overall content. And no matter how amazing savage trials are it’ll never make core better, worse if jobs remain conflict adverse and stale