What dps/utility buttons old or new would you add to your healer?

[Nizzi]

That's not even remotely true. Most fights have several mechanics that if anyone screws up, it's a wipe, but quite a few that if someone screws up, it's not. For example, Proto-Carby's first charge, if someone screws up, it's not a wipe for the party. Using mitigation can cover someone not being in one of the light party stacks, etc.

Honest question that isn't intended to be rude - have you actually cleared this tier or are you just going off of what you think the tier is like? There's a very big reason people have been complaining about how body-check dependent mechanics are this tier.

[fulminating]

Referencing statistics is not an appeal to authority. The other user is essentially saying no one uses AF on things other than ED unless they're wrong, and I'm pointing out very high end players use AF on things other than ED. You can argue they've optimized their kits to use less other AF abilities so they can use more ED, but that's not the argument. His argument is that Energy Drain is so core to how SCH now works that not having ED would make the class break. My point is that it clearly would not.

I believe you have fundamentally missed the point being made. For better or worse, scholar revolves around aetherflow and its management. One of the ways to manage this resource is to dump excess into energy drain. Use of aetherflow abilities including energy drain also fuels the fey gauge, which allows for more healing over the course of the fight. Optimising scholar is about getting as many energy drains out as possible because damage is the only utility that matters. Living on 1hp is exactly the same as living on 100% - there is no mechanic that gives you a damage boost when at higher health percentages or penalty while at critical hp. Removal of energy drain would fundamentally change how scholar plays in that it would necessitate gross overhealing to manage both mp and fey gauge, or overcapping on aetherflow to ensure you're not sinking wildly into mp debt. Beyond energy drain, the only spammable aetherflow ability is lustrate, not a particularly helpful button to have to dump aetherflow with as it's merely a waste on the healthy. If they were to make this change and refuse to revert, I'd avocate for "slowened aetherflow", where the usage of aetherflow adds 10s to the recast timer just to take the edge off having to overcap so obscenely.

I've looked at logs for p8s phase2 and top, both of which show at least half, usually significantly more aetherflow uses going into energy drain than the other aetherflow skills combined. It does not matter how you try and twist these data, energy drain is the main usage for aetherflow.

[ForsakenRoe]

just an update, a group called NO DRAGOON posted a run after I had already looked at a different group. This new run has 3 indoms, 3 excogs, 1 lustrate, 15 soils and FIFTY THREE energy drains. a massive increase over the other log, now we're at like 80% of the aetherflows in the fight going into ED

Oh, that's possible...except Recitation can't be used on Sacred Soil. Or Lustrate. We could look at how many Recitations were used and look at if Deployment Tactics was used with them to see how many of those likely went to Adlos, and subtract the rest from the Indom stack, but we still run into the issue of Sacred Soil not using that.

Again, note what my argument is and is not.

My argument is not that no one is using Energy Drain, that every AF spender goes to ED, etc.

My argument is that SCH would not be broken or unplayable without ED.

Then it's a good thing I didn't bring up Sacred Soil, isn't it. I specifically said Indom, because that would be my first assumption for where the Recitations are being spent, with Adlo a second, due to Deployment. IDK why you bring Soil into it when its clearly not part of the point. I went and rechecked though, just for you. Luckily there's a 'timeline' function on the site that makes it easy to check this stuff. All 8 Recitations, in the log I originally mentioned, were spent on Adloquium. So it hasn't changed the fact that half of the Aetherflow in the fight went to ED.

We know how 'broken and unplayable' or not SCH would be without ED. We've seen it and played it. The devs gave ED back in a clumsy hotfix. If SCH was not 'broken and unplayable', even without ED's presence in the kit, surely the devs would have either left us without ED returned, or replaced ED with something else? The fact they backpedalled on it without any hint of an alternative beyond 'guess you can just overcap then', shows how necessary to the kit ED is. If they moved the MP restore off of Aetherflow's cast, and put it on the spenders (so, exactly like SGE) and removed ED, it'd be 'functional', sure, but it'd also not play well. People already complain that it feels jank to purposely overheal as SGE just to keep your MP in check. I complain it feels jank to purposely overheal on WHM to prep a Misery for burst windows. It'd feel jank on SCH too. It did in 5.0, it will do in whatever patch this 'remove ED' happens, unless there's something to take it's place, I think.

Personally, I'm more fine with SGE than SCH, I don't feel the pain of 'overcapped on galls oops' because I'd rather have them than not when it comes to the once-in-a-fight point where I actually needed them. It feels bad on SCH because you get all 3 flows at once, so you have to make sure you're empty before you press the Aetherflow button. Maybe if there was a more granular generation, in the way that WHM and SGE have theirs generate once every 20s, it'd feel a little less bad. Heck, that way maybe we could get back 'Quickened Aetherflow', but reworked slightly, so it's more like 'you generate a flow every 30s. When you use a flow, instead of it shaving 5s off the timer, it instead doubles the generation rate for 10s'. This way, it actually feels like the 'flow' is being 'quickened', shown by the gauge filling up at a more rapid speed. We know SE can make timers tick faster or slower because they've done it in the new 24man.

Again, if there was a 'new skill to throw Flow on' I'd take OGCD shielding. It would buy us extra damage in the form of 'you dont have to press succor for this raidwide now'. But if there needs to be a DPS component to it, a 'best of both worlds' solution could just be an OGCD single target shield (so like Benison), that, upon expiration or consumption of the shield, deals X potency damage in an AOE around the shielded player. Now there'd be something to throw about in a big wall-to-wall pull, alternate that new OGCD on the tank, and AOW to deal damage, and we're getting somewhere.

[Renathras]

Honest question that isn't intended to be rude - have you actually cleared this tier or are you just going off of what you think the tier is like? There's a very big reason people have been complaining about how body-check dependent mechanics are this tier.

I've cleared some fights this tier, which is why I outright mentioned one.

People have complained because literally every fight this EXPANSION has had a body check. Erik did as well.

The body check on P5S is Devour. If you're missing even one person, that's generally going to be a wipe (technically you can have one person dead, but only one). P1S's body checks were Fourfold Suffering and Intemperance. P2S's were the dash/limit cut thing and the shove + puddles mechanics.

That's why I said "several mechanics" not "all mechanics".

I believe you have fundamentally missed the point being made.

No, I think it's that we're talking about different things.

You're talking about what optimal SCH play with Energy Drain in the game is, and I'm noting that SCH play would be fine without that. That SCH currently revolves around that is irrelevant since its removal wouldn't significantly alter the playstyle. (Not to mention "revolves around" is pretty subjective; it doesn't revolve around Energy Drain, it revolves around Aetherflow, of which ED is one method of managing, but not the only one, and not the only possible one, either...) Consider a world where Energy Drain has been removed. Here is how SCH would play:

Maintain ABC with Broil casts, refreshing Biolysis when it has less than 3 seconds left. Use Chain Strategem on CD for 2 min bursts outside of planned party burst delays for untargetable phases. Establish an oGCD healing plan for the encounter with your co-Healer. Place your Faerie in the center (or whatever) of the field to ensure Faerie-centered abilities apply to the party. Use Aetherflow on CD to regenerate MP and resources.

That's how SCH plays today, with the only difference being your burst windows are a bit less hectic since you aren't trying to cram EDs into them, and you would have AF spenders be higher priority oGCD use, giving SCH's healing toolkit more flexibility. Otherwise, SCH would play identically to today. Hence why I say it wouldn't break the Job for it to be removed, since the Job would, overall, play the same way it does today. The only major change would be the skill ceiling to optimize it would be slightly lower, but that doesn't break the Job, either. (And, let's be real, Faerie Gauge needs a serious rework as well; it's probably the most useless Job gauge/mechanic in the game - looking at those same top players, Fey Union's healing tends to make up a tiny fraction of their overall healing.)

Optimising scholar is about getting as many energy drains out as possible because damage is the only utility that matters

But don't you see, this is why I say it's bad. Because it's never a choice. You're either doing it right, or you're wrong. They could delete Excog, Lustrate (they could delete that one anyway...), and Soil and SCH be played largely the same because you aren't allowed to use them. And why not? Because Energy Drain.

Though you again overstate your case:

Energy Drain has nothing to do with MP management, and having a non-damage AF spender that produces mitigation would not be overhealing.

Removal of energy drain would fundamentally change how scholar plays

As shown above:

No, no it would not.

SCH without ED would play almost identically to SCH with ED. That's the exact opposite to "fundamentally change".

Beyond energy drain, the only spammable aetherflow ability is lustrate, not a particularly helpful button

This is the part where I have to ask if you've actually read any of my posts before replying to them. I've literally said that removing ED would mean they'd need to give SCH a spamable AF spender with mitigation attached to it like Divine Benison, Aquaveil, or Taurochole. You should really read things before replying to them...

For better or worse, scholar revolves around aetherflow and its management. One of the ways to manage this resource is to dump excess into energy drain. Use of aetherflow abilities including energy drain also fuels the fey gauge, which allows for more healing over the course of the fight. Optimising scholar is about getting as many energy drains out as possible because damage is the only utility that matters. Living on 1hp is exactly the same as living on 100% - there is no mechanic that gives you a damage boost when at higher health percentages or penalty while at critical hp. Removal of energy drain would fundamentally change how scholar plays in that it would necessitate gross overhealing to manage both mp and fey gauge, or overcapping on aetherflow to ensure you're not sinking wildly into mp debt. Beyond energy drain, the only spammable aetherflow ability is lustrate, not a particularly helpful button to have to dump aetherflow with as it's merely a waste on the healthy. If they were to make this change and refuse to revert, I'd avocate for "slowened aetherflow", where the usage of aetherflow adds 10s to the recast timer just to take the edge off having to overcap so obscenely.

I've looked at logs for p8s phase2 and top, both of which show at least half, usually significantly more aetherflow uses going into energy drain than the other aetherflow skills combined. It does not matter how you try and twist these data, energy drain is the main usage for aetherflow.[/QUOTE]

just an update, a group called NO DRAGOON posted a run after I had already looked at a different group. This new run has 3 indoms, 3 excogs, 1 lustrate, 15 soils and FIFTY THREE energy drains. a massive increase over the other log, now we're at like 80% of the aetherflows in the fight going into ED

53/75 ~= 70%

Then it's a good thing I didn't bring up Sacred Soil, isn't it. I specifically said Indom, because that would be my first assumption for where the Recitations are being spent, with Adlo a second, due to Deployment. IDK why you bring Soil into it when its clearly not part of the point.

I wish you wouldn't do this so often. "I don't know why you bring up thing that opposes my argument, I'd like to pretend that's not a thing since it makes my argument weaker..."

I bring up Soil because it's used more frequently and because it's an AF spender that cannot be used with Recitation and is not Energy Drain.

If SCH was not 'broken and unplayable', even without ED's presence in the kit, surely the devs would have either left us without ED returned, or replaced ED with something else? The fact they backpedalled on it without any hint of an alternative beyond 'guess you can just overcap then', shows how necessary to the kit ED is.

Man, I wish I lived in your headspace sometimes...

No, it proves none of this. What it proves is that the Devs were trying to mollify the complainers, not that they felt ED was critical to the gameplay. Recall they nerfed it to the point it was only a DPS gain of something like 30 potency (since you had to use it with Ruin 2). They effectively made it as negligible as possible when giving it back so that it would have a minimal impact between the people using it and not using it.

That says they felt ED was not at all critical to the game play, and were actually trying to make it as non-critical as possible. It wasn't the big DPS gain (if "big" is even the word for it...) that it is now until EW lowered Broil's cast time to allow a good weave window. SCH wasn't "broken" in 5.0.

As I've said SEVERAL TIMES, the word was "awkward", not "broken". SCH in 5.0 was still the most powerful Healer in the game at the time - and for all of ShB. Its problem wasn't ED being gone, its problem was Fey abilities ghosting and it still had a lot of weird clunk. Some of which was fixed in EW, but some of which remains.

If they moved the MP restore off of Aetherflow's cast, and put it on the spenders (so, exactly like SGE) and removed ED,

...literally no one is arguing for this. You're fighting a strawman here.

Maybe if there was a more granular generation, in the way that WHM and SGE have theirs

I don't often see you argue for homogenization...

But if there needs to be a DPS component to it,

There doesn't, in fact, need to be a DPS component to it. Taurochole has no DPS component and is fine.

...though that said, an aoe bursting shield would be cool for dungeons, but people would probably demand it have a CD for some godforsaken reason, defeating the entire point... <_<

.

Also note again for the record:

I'm not advocating for the removal of Energy Drain.

I'm simply arguing that the idea SCH "revolves around it" or would be "nigh unplayable" without it are silly extremeism statements overstating (vastly) the argument for it.

The main valid argument for ED, imo, is that SCH has no other spamable AF spenders that are useful (Lustrate generally isn't) in most casts (when party health is in a good place already and Soil and Excog are on CD), and that it allows for a feeling of (really) slight optimization for players really into that.

Those are valid arguments to make in its favor.

SCH "revolving around" it or being "nigh unplayable" or "broken" without it are not.

[fulminating]

Off the top of my head, I'd say every fight has at least 4 body checks this tier (p8sp1 and p8sp2 being counted separately).

It really doesn't matter what spammable non-damage button they give to consume aetherflow it can only be a waster or scholar will be a mandatory pick. There is no inbetween. Look at dark knight - one extra mit and a boatload of damage and it's in every top clear.

I don't understand your objection. On warrior you're either maximising gauge generation/playing chicken with storm's eye or you have room for improvement. On summoner you're either "summoning" primals or doing it wrong. On machinist you're either reassembling drill 1/2/3 or doing it wrong. Surely having a way to demonstrate competence/mastery/familiarity with the fight and/or scholar kit is a good thing?

I wouldn't say you've shown above how it would play the same, quite the opposite in fact. The loss of a "reward" system for good management/play/party not eating crayons is absent.

I think ascribing motivation to the devs is a fool's errand, particularly from before they put little explanations on the job pages.

[Silver-Strider]

You're using circular reasoning

My reasoning is based on what the game demands of a player. The game demands X amounts of healing and Y amounts of damage. If I can hit X with this series of tools, then the other tools are extra. SCH can hit X without using Aetherflow skills more than is necessary. The only thing about X is that it there are other variables that determine its value. If people are screwing up, not hitting mitigation, etc. than X becomes bigger and thus those extra tools become required to clear but at the same time, there's a breaking point where if X hits a certain threshold, you won't be able to meet the demands of Y.

Both SCH and SGE can clear the content of the game just fine. SCH does more damage though while still meeting the requirements of healing. Why is that? Maybe because SCH, despite their "handicap" is just stronger and better than SGE, which even the Devs conceded to when they had to buff Holos on SGE and even then it's still behind SCH.

That's not even remotely true. Most fights have several mechanics that if anyone screws up, it's a wipe, but quite a few that if someone screws up, it's not.

We can go back and forth on this matter all day honestly. For every mechanic like Proto-Carbs charge, there are mechanics like Snakes in P8S that can wipe the party. Are there mechanics that you can recover from? Yes, I never claimed otherwise, else I'd have stated 10/10 mechanical failures resulted in a wipe but do those recoverable mechanics require the use of Aetherflow are an entirely different matter. Assuming the person isn't in danger of dying, Aetherpact would work for getting them patched up just fine.

Not to be snarky, but "Do you even Balance, bro?"

Yes, but even they commented on the drawbacks of the opener, which I mentioned with delaying Aetherflow usage. You lose out on potential uses of Aetherflow meaning there are times when you have to use Energy Drain outside of burst windows.

YOU can say "herp derp overhealing!!" all you want, people would have been happy with those options since there is no time a shield, regen, or mitigation on a Tank isn't useful if it's costing you nothing and allows you to free up other oGCDs for your overall healing plan.

Yes, because no one complains about how much meaningless over bloated crap healers have already /s

Considering your view is the one that says removing Energy Drain wouldn't break the job, despite the evidence to the contrary, I believe it is best that you drop it.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]Surely having a way to demonstrate competence/mastery/familiarity with the fight and/or scholar kit is a good thing?

I wouldn't say you've shown above how it would play the same, quite the opposite in fact. The loss of a "reward" system for good management/play/party not eating crayons is absent.

I'm at that point where I think the dev just want to remove every single way a player can make mistake. Can't feel 'bad' when there's no mistake to be made, right? /s

[SargeTheSeagull]

I'm at that point where I think the dev just want to remove every single way a player can make mistake. Can't feel 'bad' when there's no mistake to be made, right? /s

I'm fairly certain this is their actual reasoning.

[Recon1o6]

Why does every thread get derailed by renathras and people bickering with him about a valid but irrelevant to current thread topic with increasingly large posts.
sigh

I'm not seeing much for dps on Ast. I find that quite curious since the one dot/one nuke was an issue with ast since sb. The common sentiment being the cards were fun but the lack of dps buttons sucked, hence very few players doing solo things like fates or potd as ast.

Yet pvp ast has effectively rdm's doublecast but better. In a pve scenario, would that be stepping on rdm's toes a bit? the again i suppose that would be fair since rdm is 2 buttons from being a fully functional healer (aoe heal+esuna)

[IDontPetLalas]

Why does every thread get derailed by renathras and people bickering with him about a valid but irrelevant to current thread topic with increasingly large posts.
sigh

I'm not seeing much for dps on Ast. I find that quite curious since the one dot/one nuke was an issue with ast since sb. The common sentiment being the cards were fun but the lack of dps buttons sucked, hence very few players doing solo things like fates or potd as ast.

Yet pvp ast has effectively rdm's doublecast but better. In a pve scenario, would that be stepping on rdm's toes a bit? the again i suppose that would be fair since rdm is 2 buttons from being a fully functional healer (aoe heal+esuna)

It's been mentioned, as running fates or potd or even solo NSQ in some cases as an AST can be misery even WHM is less painful. I don't see how it would "step on RDM toes" , I think it is a fair question to ask, however I would point out that summoners can raise - but they aren't healers, and swiftcast isn't unique to healers.