Would you be opposed to SE implementing a program to scan for addons/parsers?

[Tulvi]

It's definitely an advantage to NEED AddOns to fix the Job the game's own developers broke and refuse to hotfix: see Ninja Mudras. I get it, Cactbot and AoE telegraphers really dumb down the encounter - honestly, people who use these and then shriek at you for not being an endgame player and still telling them how to play don't have a good leg to stand on - but there really is no denying that plugins can do a LOT that make the game fun and wondrous. There's one that always displays your location next to your World for example, and honestly I'm baffled that's not default. Can just open the Map, I know, but when small micro-problems like this happen it builds up. I've seen GShade and custom-pose screenshots, and I feel envious at times. On the one hand, you have the Cactpot solver. On the other, you have something that actually makes the countdown in-game not as awful as it is. OFC, who can forget the Viera/Hrothgar fixers? The world of plugins is huge, they enrich the game as often as they make it brainless, so if you want to go around angrily shoving the ToS and Yoshida's statements in people's faces, carry on with knowledge.

I encourage anyone wanting to engage in vigilante justice to understand how AddOns work, how open-source they are, and how they go past your average callout bot to better the game, fix where the developers messed up. "Know thy enemy" as is said.

Absolutely agreed. My whole point from the beginning was not against every addon, but specifically those that create an unfair advantage (zoom hack, mechanics announcers / solvers etc.) or create toxicity (DPS meters).

That Ninja issue is all on SE and they should be ashamed that a 3rd party plugin fixes what they refuse to fix. Same goes for Viera and hats. If an addon can fix that, then SE’s claims about “impossibility of a fix due to head model shape” is just pure laziness.

There clearly are QoL addons and blatant cheating addons. I only have a problem with the cheating ones.

[Zebraoracle]

Absolutely agreed. My whole point from the beginning was not against every addon, but specifically those that create an unfair advantage (zoom hack, mechanics announcers / solvers etc.) or create toxicity (DPS meters).

That Ninja issue is all on SE and they should be ashamed that a 3rd party plugin fixes what they refuse to fix. Same goes for Viera and hats. If an addon can fix that, then SE’s claims about “impossibility of a fix due to head model shape” is just pure laziness.

There clearly are QoL addons and blatant cheating addons. I only have a problem with the cheating ones.

If this is the case, you should have worded your original post better instead of making it seem like you're attacking people for having a different idea of a playstyle than what you have. You would have had people actually agreeing with you (except about the ACT creating toxicity part), because yes, the cheating mods definitely gotta go. However, this is not the message that you got across in your first post.

[Hanaya]

I do Extreme trials in PF mostly. And I have never seen anyone leave because of a failed DPS check. Tbh, I’ve never seen anyone fail a DPS check other that enrage. 100% of my experience with people leaving is when somebody fails a mechanic, not a DPS check.

Also since I do mostly only Extreme trials, usually the only DPS check there is the enrage. If we fail it, no one leaves because we know we can do it as we are really close to kill.

I can’t speak for Savage as I rarely do them, because progging it requires a static and I’m not playing the game on a scheduled basis. So if there are more DPS checks in Savage, then sure, I can see why would people leave, but my personal experience from Extremes is that DPS check is never the reason to leave and I really never seen it happen.

I will say that savage dps checks tend to be far more punishing than extreme dps checks. as long as the party isn't dying left and right, it's very unlikely to see enrage in extremes (like I really never see it, either we wipe to mechanics or clear), but in savage it's a lot harder. I mostly play with a static, but if I'm in a pf and we're wiping multiple times to a dps check, I do leave the party because it's often a sign that we'll just be wiping to enrage until the lockout ends.

This is assuming it's a reclear party, though. If I'm in a prog party I don't really care, but joining a reclear party implies that you are able to do the fight consistently and do enough damage to kill the boss, so i think it's kind of fair to say that if someone joins a party with specific expectations, they should be able to meet those expectations. that being said, I don't really see people getting kicked for their dps blatantly. normally the parties will just disband, in my experience. I've actually never seen anyone call out another player in chat for low dps, only players that are consistently failing mechs that they should be able to do if they're in a reclear party.

[Tulvi]

If this is the case, you should have worded your original post better instead of making it seem like you're attacking people for having a different idea of a playstyle than what you have. You would have had people actually agreeing with you (except about the ACT creating toxicity part), because yes, the cheating mods definitely gotta go. However, this is not the message that you got across in your first post.

Sure, looking back I can see where exactly I could’ve worded it better or explain my point in more detail. Especially the play style part. I’ve tried to explain it better later. It’s absolutely fine to look for different things in a game, even in an Ultimate. But Ultimate is specific because of the challenge it provides.

No matter what one is looking for in an Ultimate raid, clearing it with an addon that creates an unfair advantage (e.g. zoom hack) is still not right and it takes away a huge portion of the challenge. Let’s say I would want a weapon from an Ultimate. If I cleared it using a zoom hack, I would have not only cheated, but also missed the whole point of doing an Ultimate (“playing the game incorrectly”).

When it comes to DPS meters, I just really have the experience of these being used much more to either flex or harass other players, than to optimise gameplay and become a better player. I’ve ofc seen DPS meters being used to help someone get better, but only rarely. If I recall correctly, these are the reasons Yoshi refuses to give them a pass in FF, which is what made me love FF even more when I learnt about his stance on this.
And since the devs’ official stance on DPS meters is that they are against them, I’d expect people that prog Ultimate to not use them. Aren’t raiders that prog Ultimate usually the most skilled players anyway? Don’t they form static groups with people they know are good at their classes?

[Zebraoracle]

Sure, looking back I can see where exactly I could’ve worded it better or explain my point in more detail. Especially the play style part. I’ve tried to explain it better later. It’s absolutely fine to look for different things in a game, even in an Ultimate. But Ultimate is specific because of the challenge it provides.

No matter what one is looking for in an Ultimate raid, clearing it with an addon that creates an unfair advantage (e.g. zoom hack) is still not right and it takes away a huge portion of the challenge. Let’s say I would want a weapon from an Ultimate. If I cleared it using a zoom hack, I would have not only cheated, but also missed the whole point of doing an Ultimate (“playing the game incorrectly”).

When it comes to DPS meters, I just really have the experience of these being used much more to either flex or harass other players, than to optimise gameplay and become a better player. I’ve ofc seen DPS meters being used to help someone get better, but only rarely. If I recall correctly, these are the reasons Yoshi refuses to give them a pass in FF, which is what made me love FF even more when I learnt about his stance on this.
And since the devs’ official stance on DPS meters is that they are against them, I’d expect people that prog Ultimate to not use them. Aren’t raiders that prog Ultimate usually the most skilled players anyway? Don’t they form static groups with people they know are good at their classes?

I think everyone that's reasonable is against cheating mods, despite the crap some people in this thread have tried to fling at myself and others ("you disagreed with me therefore you're defending mods and are a cheater yourself" among other idiotic attacks).

Regarding DPS meters, I mean, sure, but part of learning the optimal way to play their jobs and all that literally comes from the information ACT provides, because the game itself does a pisspoor job of doing it for us. I'm pretty sure The Balance, the discord that helps people with optimizing their rotations, wouldn't exist without ACT, meaning we would have very little idea how to actually make sure we're playing our jobs correctly, something that's definitely needed for ultimates.

And it's because of SE's stance on mods that ACT will never become the toxic cancer that people are scared of. The way this game is handled, both by the community and the devs, ensures that it will not, and as long as people are smart about it and not complete idiots, we can safely fall back on YoshiP's stance of "don't ask don't tell, we're not going to hunt you down unless you show it, and I don't want players witch hunting other players over it".

[ForteNightshade]

FF: If a group fails a DPS check, everyone will try harder, because it’s not possible to see who is struggling the most.

This is an incredibly naive mindset. How can everyone "try harder" when no one has the slightest clue why they reached enrage? You mention having only really done Extremes. So here's the thing. Extremes have a comically low threshold to clear. Rubicante can allow upwards of like 8+ deaths and you'll still make the check provided everyone knows what they're doing. This is very much not the case for Savage, especially in the early weeks. Even after the nerf and three weeks worth of gear, you'll still see enrage without everyone pumping in P8S. You really can't compare the two until after you start getting gear which neuters the DPS check quite significantly.

And I must disagree. Kicking somebody without giving them a chance to do better is toxic and incredibly rude.

A party leader is under no obligation to give you any chance. In fact, they can kick you simply for disliking your glamour. It's their party after all. Now most parties won't kick immediately and give people a chance to work out whatever kinks they need but if you're messing up several times then it's well within their right to rep you. Although, even in such a scenario a lot of people will simply disband and possibly reform with the good players.

And since the devs’ official stance on DPS meters is that they are against them, I’d expect people that prog Ultimate to not use them. Aren’t raiders that prog Ultimate usually the most skilled players anyway? Don’t they form static groups with people they know are good at their classes?

Let me give you a scenario I ran into a while back that really highlights why parsers are so useful.

Back near the end Shadowbringers I was helping a friend clear TEA. Now three of us were using relics and nearly everyone had dungeon BiS which is a massive upswing in damage from when the fight released. Nevertheless, we still saw enrage clean on more than one occasion. Which just shouldn't happen. I cleared TEA on content with far less gear. So the raid lead and I started looking through logs to determine the issue. Turns out neither healer had optimizing their healing and were essentially healing over each other and not dealing damage. They were a combined 2,000 below expected DPS relative to other groups. My co-tank was also struggling. Without ACT and FFlogs, you'd be inclined to put that blame on the DPS since it's a DPS check and all. They were all fine. Sure, they could have pumped out a little more but at that point you're squeezing blood from a stone.

Once we sorted out that issue and the healers focused more on improving their DPS, we cleared.

At the high-end level parsers are simply far too valuable a tool in a game centered around DPS. I can assure you their removal would actually lead to more toxicity because now you'd have people blindly pointing the finger at each other without any idea who's actually struggling.

[Ivtrix]

This is an incredibly naive mindset. How can everyone "try harder" when no one has the slightest clue why they reached enrage? You mention having only really done Extremes. So here's the thing. Extremes have a comically low threshold to clear. Rubicante can allow upwards of like 8+ deaths and you'll still make the check provided everyone knows what they're doing. This is very much not the case for Savage, especially in the early weeks. Even after the nerf and three weeks worth of gear, you'll still see enrage without everyone pumping in P8S. You really can't compare the two until after you start getting gear which neuters the DPS check quite significantly.



A party leader is under no obligation to give you any chance. In fact, they can kick you simply for displaying your glamour. It's their party after all. Now most parties won't kick immediately and give people a chance to work out whatever kinks they need but if you're messing up several times then it's well within their right to rep you. Although, even in such a scenario a lot of people will simply disband and possibly reform with the good players.



Let me give you a scenario I ran into a while back that really highlights why parsers are so useful.

Back near the end Shadowbringers I was helping a friend clear TEA. Now three of us were using relics and nearly everyone had dungeon BiS which is a massive upswing in damage from when the fight released. Nevertheless, we still saw enrage clean on more than one occasion. Which just shouldn't happen. I cleared TEA on content with far less gear. So the raid lead and I started looking through logs to determine the issue. Turns out neither healer had optimizing their healing and were essentially healing over each other and not dealing damage. They were a combined 2,000 below expected DPS relative to other groups. My co-tank was also struggling. Without ACT and FFlogs, you'd be inclined to put that blame on the DPS since it's a DPS check and all. They were all fine. Sure, they could have pumped out a little more but at that point you're squeezing blood from a stone.

Once we sorted out that issue and the healers focused more on improving their DPS, we cleared.

At the high-end level parsers are simply far too valuable a tool in a game centered around DPS. I can assure you their removal would actually lead to more toxicity because now you'd have people blindly pointing the finger at each other without any idea who's actually struggling.

A lot of people who don’t touch higher end content don’t realize that in higher end content healer dps isn’t optional, optimization is mandatory. There is no way to meet the p4 dps check in TOP without healers pumping

[HikariKurosawa]

After this post I am cancelling my sub. I will wait for the future of this game. It's weird for a company to leave cheating as a sanctioned thing. It's one thing if it isn't against ToS like blizzard does for WoW, but to have it against ToS and fully enabled without punishment even when people are openly admitting to using addons and breaking ToS on the official forums.

For people to be shaming players by bringing up their parses to use against them on the official forums as addon users, when the people they are shaming just play the game as a fun rpg because they know that it's not currently a legitimate experience in regards to fair play... It's just weird and toxic. I don't think this community should exist as is. I don't want to support this company as is, and I don't feel good being in this world anymore.

It was just an RPG to me, but now it's become something tainted after the omega controversy bringing how bad the problem actually is to light. Something has to change.

"Xeno's honest thoughts on the cheating drama" watch this video on youtube without feeling sick. It's a test to see how honest you are.

[Rilifane]

It was just an RPG to me, but now it's become something tainted after the omega controversy bringing how bad the problem actually is to light. Something has to change.

If you're just here to chill and have fun in a RPG, then that sounds like a 100% you problem because that shouldn't be able to "taint" anything for you.

[HikariKurosawa]

If you're just here to chill and have fun in a RPG, then that sounds like a 100% you problem because that shouldn't be able to "taint" anything for you.

I'm not just here for that reason by choice, I am here for that reason because the game has been tainted by players who break the tos in a belligerent way. I'd like to engage in the game further, just not like this. You people make it unappealing to people like me who value fair play.

You can deflect and feign innocence all you want, but you know what you're doing to this game.