Dark Knight Megathread

[Zairava]

The cure potency for Living Dead should be buffed slightly. Just enough so that a Dark Knight can heal themselves, without receiving healing from other party members, within 3 GCDs on a single target. Normally a Dark Knight heals themselves with just 4 GCDs under Living Dead. However, if their GCD is slow(such as a 2.5 GCD or near that) and Walking Dead procs right after their GCD cooldown starts, the bad timing can make it so they can only get 3 GCDs under Walking Dead. If all 3 of those GCDs don't critical hit and roll low for variance, the Dark Knight can die while near the HP restoration requirement. This is a rare case and can never happen if you just give the Dark Knight any slight amount of healing. However, I assume the last Living Dead change was to eliminate any need for healing assistance from other party members.

Thing is though, if we had any form of consistent viable single-target sustain, this wouldn't be as big an issue

Sole Survivor: instead of upon the enemy dying though, just make it so it gives us some hp equal to a 200/300 potency heal upon hitting them.

and since i forgot to mention it, ideally this would be on either a 12s duration or 5 stack system

[Shurrikhan]

Thing is though, if we had any form of consistent viable single-target sustain, this wouldn't be as big an issue

and since i forgot to mention it, ideally this would be on either a 12s duration or 5 stack system

Sorry to intrude, but couldn't we do this just by having Abyssal Drain (also) apply a duration (say, 12s) of Leech effect (the debuffer heals for a % of their damage dealt)? Once applied, it wouldn't matter if that's ST or AoE damage, and the gap in our damage dealt in ST vs. AoE is far smaller than the gap currently possessed between our 'burst' AoE sustain and our 'burst' (if we can at all call it that) ST sustain.

Having a shorter-but-burstier Bloodbath on demand, especially if on two charges each on a 40s CD, could be a huge and versatile boon to sustain.

[Zairava]

Sorry to intrude, but couldn't we do this just by having Abyssal Drain (also) apply a duration (say, 12s) of Leech effect (the debuffer heals for a % of their damage dealt)? Once applied, it wouldn't matter if that's ST or AoE damage, and the gap in our damage dealt in ST vs. AoE is far smaller than the gap currently possessed between our 'burst' AoE sustain and our 'burst' (if we can at all call it that) ST sustain.

That is an option, yeah, and considering it would keep us with another button slot, probably the preferred one.

Assuming this means it is separated from Carve and Spit, having read something about this in the past...couldn't we also tack salted earth as an added effect to Abyssal Drain to prevent the already overbloated burst? (this is assuming they double down even further and don't reduce the OGCD chaos during our opener and 2-m bursts)

This is to say that upon activating Abyssal Drain, it would form the bubble around the mob it hits directly.

[Shurrikhan]

That is an option, yeah, and considering it would keep us with another button slot, probably the preferred one.

Assuming this means it is separated from Carve and Spit, having read something about this in the past...

I was going to keep them together, personally, and just have CnS do the same or similar. I like the idea of CnS thematically divying up the opponent's soul or the like, but in the end that's a matter of whether it's worth the extra button to give DRK more choice and less overlap between ST and AoE (from both Salted Earth and an Abyssal-CnS hybrid) and/or to add an additional button (not necessarily an addition button-press) to its burst button-flow.

couldn't we also tack salted earth as an added effect to Abyssal Drain to prevent the already overbloated burst

I would not recommend that. They're different targeting procedures, and though there aren't many unique advantages to ground-targeting these days, the more we trim on the basis that it's not especially handy just right now (rather than just un-nerfing macros and/or allowing for more direct manipulation of targeting procedures), the more we end up devaluing varied contexts, too.

Moreover, if by bloat we're referring to the number of actions over a 20s raid buff, I feel that's something we can and should deal with ahead of time and independently of button-consolidation, as per the means we've discussed before (giving the other oGCDs MP costs and then raising MP generation per minute, thereby raising DRK's apm over its lulls between bursts).

[Zairava]

I was going to keep them together, personally, and just have CnS do the same or similar. I like the idea of CnS thematically divying up the opponent's soul or the like, but in the end that's a matter of whether it's worth the extra button to give DRK more choice and less overlap between ST and AoE (from both Salted Earth and an Abyssal-CnS hybrid) and/or to add an additional button (not necessarily an addition button-press) to its burst button-flow.

I would be for this as well. Remember my earlier concepts with a status called "Bathed in Blood"? Well, this could be that.

Both Carve and Spit and Abyssal Drain could give that status to you, and every time you land an attack it you heal for a percentage of, or equal to, the damage dealt.

I would not recommend that. They're different targeting procedures, and though there aren't many unique advantages to ground-targeting these days, the more we trim on the basis that it's not especially handy just right now (rather than just un-nerfing macros and/or allowing for more direct manipulation of targeting procedures), the more we end up devaluing varied contexts, too.

Moreover, if by bloat we're referring to the number of actions over a 20s raid buff, I feel that's something we can and should deal with ahead of time and independently of button-consolidation, as per the means we've discussed before (giving the other oGCDs MP costs and then raising MP generation per minute, thereby raising DRK's apm over its lulls between bursts).

Yeah I'm not for the abyssal->salted spitball myself. I would much rather we give the other OGCD's mp costs as we discussed in the past.

Though, this still doesn't remove that I would like something done with salted earth. Even just getting the gauge generation back would be sufficient imo.

[Shurrikhan]

I would be for this as well. Remember my earlier concepts with a status called "Bathed in Blood"? Well, this could be that.

Both Carve and Spit and Abyssal Drain could give that status to you, and every time you land an attack it you heal for a percentage of, or equal to, the damage dealt.

Yup, and while potentially a bit more "tacked-on" a solution, it'd also be the least vulnerable, as it wouldn't depend on the affected enemies' TTK exceeding the (de)buff's duration.

Though, this still doesn't remove that I would like something done with salted earth.

Same. Though, I'm not a huge fan of gauge generation being that "something," especially if we were to, say, reduce the Blood cost of Bloodspiller/Quietus already down to 40 (so we could actually have as many natural casts as those provided by Delirium).

(I'd rather Delirium feel like the compliment than the bulk of our gauge spenders, and while Salted Earth could add to those non-Delirium casts, I imagine the two would feel rather fused in their minute-to-minute gating of the gauge, all while --relative to just reducing the BS/Quietus costs-- making Bloodspiller feel far less bankable than what an extra combo's worth of storage could provide and Souleater/Stalwart feel less rewarding. And, of course, if we did both, then we're starting to push into redundancy.)

:: Personally, there's a ton I want to do with DRK that would, sadly, require a context in which utility is actually wanted/rewarded (think more Mythic+ esque, but without the numerous problems/bloat/constraints of surrounding systems). I feel like DRK should be the "cunning, tricky bastard" tank, after all.

[Zairava]

Same. Though, I'm not a huge fan of gauge generation being that "something," especially if we were to, say, reduce the Blood cost of Bloodspiller/Quietus already down to 40 (so we could actually have as many natural casts as those provided by Delirium).

(I'd rather Delirium feel like the compliment than the bulk of our gauge spenders, and while Salted Earth could add to those non-Delirium casts, I imagine the two would feel rather fused in their minute-to-minute gating of the gauge, all while --relative to just reducing the BS/Quietus costs-- making Bloodspiller feel far less bankable than what an extra combo's worth of storage could provide and Souleater/Stalwart feel less rewarding. And, of course, if we did both, then we're starting to push into redundancy.)

:: Personally, there's a ton I want to do with DRK that would, sadly, require a context in which utility is actually wanted/rewarded (think more Mythic+ esque, but without the numerous problems/bloat/constraints of surrounding systems). I feel like DRK should be the "cunning, tricky bastard" tank, after all.

If I were to go off my personal wants I would just slap the pvp version of Salted Earth into pve. Though, the draw-in wouldn't work on bosses and that's fine (I would much rather have more bosses be stunnable anyway, which isn't going to happen either) More interruptible casts would be great, but that trails into tanking as an entire role.

Delirium is a bit rough for me, at least creatively. Outside of Heavensward it's been used mostly for burst damage, Shadowbringers onward just feels like taking the easiest but efficient route. At the very least I would have preferred if it gave a combo off of Bloodspiller, but I'm starting to wonder if it just gave 50 gauge and upgraded Bloodspiller to Scourge at [high potency] instead of giving an entire combo if it would be better. Bloodspiller is definitely more satisfying when not spammed every 60s into oblivion is something I've come to realize. So just using it during burst downtime would feel better imo

Anyway, Dark Knight feels to me like it should be the "by any means necessary" tank, especially due in part to the story. Going ape-shit and embracing that rather than controlling it like WAR.

[Guts-BSM]

The cure potency for Living Dead should be buffed slightly. Just enough so that a Dark Knight can heal themselves, without receiving healing from other party members, within 3 GCDs on a single target. Normally a Dark Knight heals themselves with just 4 GCDs under Living Dead. However, if their GCD is slow(such as a 2.5 GCD or near that) and Walking Dead procs right after their GCD cooldown starts, the bad timing can make it so they can only get 3 GCDs under Walking Dead. If all 3 of those GCDs don't critical hit and roll low for variance, the Dark Knight can die while near the HP restoration requirement. This is a rare case and can never happen if you just give the Dark Knight any slight amount of healing. However, I assume the last Living Dead change was to eliminate any need for healing assistance from other party members.

since they fixed living dead i haven't once died to it

[ataren3]

I like DRK... as a damage dealer. As a tank less so.

The main reason why is because it deals good damage for a tank with really no self sustain to match it. People usually say the reason why DRK doesn't have self sustain is because of its damage output but I disagree. Just look at GNB that does as much if not more with so much self sustain for yourself and/or a party member.

• I'd really like to see Carve and Spit and Abyssal Drain get separated again. I don't understand why they were combined in the first place
• I think LD is at an ok spot for the healing it gives; however I think you should be allowed to heal yourself the ENTIRE way through and not lose your only regen when you were just at death's door. It doesn't feel good helping the healers out with your hp a bit only to suddenly lose that because you hit the cap in the first couple of seconds with healers also healing you
• Living Shadow. I like the look but... it's just a glorified DoT. I'd like to see... idk something unique with Living Shadow (more below)

My idea for Living Shadow would be of a similar nature to Dancer's steps. I think it'd be really neat where instead of living shadow doing it's own thing it literally copies you like a shadow. You get a bar while it's out and you perform your attacks as normal. It copies those attacks with the same (or more likely less) potency. HOWEVER, when that bar fills? Bam. Synergy attack with your living shadow.

Just spitballing what it could look like here but imagine you raising your greatsword and the living shadow performs a "Shadowbringer" attack and gets absorbed into your greatsword. Your greatsword becomes much bigger with the the classic "dark" look DRK has (that sorta black with dark red and hints of purple). You SLAM that thing down onto the enemy and your shadow dislodges flying up and performing a final greatsword stab, before dissipating.

I think that'd be really cool. At least better than what we have right now.

[Lyth]

Doing something with Sole Survivor next expansion is interesting, as ItsUrBoi suggested. It could be implemented as a single target lifesteal-over-time effect as per Vallerie's post. It could give you something extra on mob death.

On that subject, given the Expiacion upgrade on PLD, I think that they might merge down Carve and Spit and Abyssal Drain into a single new animation that unifies both effects now that they share a cooldown. For example:

Abyssal Strike: Three-fold attack that deals unaspected damage to target and all nearby targets nearby it.
Additional Effect: Grants Sole Survivor and inflicts Scourge
Scourge: Damage over time. If target dies under this effect, restores your HP.
Sole Survivor: Restores HP over time to player.

I can understand why people preferred those actions to be separated, but it was likely done as an emergency measure to try and make the oGCDs more manageable during burst. That's also why Salted was deliberately moved to 90 seconds. I don't think this would be reverted, but the two effects should be more consistent across single target and AoE. It seems strange that you have self-sustain in one situation but not the other.

I'd agree with fulminating and Amira's point that DRK really needs a new GCD. An additional combo action, either branching off of the main combo or off of Bloodspiller could be a way of adding a bit more variety to the GCD gameplay, as Zairava suggested. I think this is an important way of making downtime more interesting outside of burst, which is definitely a problem.

I think all tanks could use a second look at their mobility tools, given some of the fantastic additions to melee this expansion. Taking the damage off Plunge like baklava suggested is one way to do this, but there are other types of movement abilities as well. I'm personally a fan of fixed distance movement abilities, like you see on DNC or RPR.

The idea of merging with your shadow as Zairava suggested is an interesting idea. What I think is more likely is that we may see a finisher (sequence?) based around Living Shadow, as ataren provided some examples. It would be fun to see Omnislash and Lionheart show up as level 100 actions.