We have midcore content... just too little too late.

[ForteNightshade]

True, it's not much time, but the example still shows how people work harder, not smarter. The hour I spent was very chill compared to whatever time others might have spent.

This is rather a presumptuous stance to take. Who's to say their time wasn't equally chill but they simply finished faster? Speaking for myself, I reached level 12 in about eight days. The few times I did grind, I tossed on a podcast or Youtube video in the background and vegged out. There was nothing "smarter" about either of our approaches. We just have different priorities.

[Jeeqbit]

Content like Eureka and Bozja take a lot of time to develop. This should be pretty obvious considering how big and vast they are.

In order to release them earlier in the expansion, they would have to be developing them in the previous expansion alongside the expansion itself. Their priority is the story and its dungeons and trials, as well as the first two extreme trials and the first tier of raids. Not to mention they were developing patches alongside that for the previous expansion.

So they understandably don't want to deal with something that has the complexity of eureka, bozja or deep dungeons when their focus is the core expansion which they have said is like developing "a whole new game". Because any new game would involve a story, sidequests, solo battles, dungeon and trial bosses of that scale. Patches don't deliver nearly as many bosses, except when it's a place like Eureka and Bozja, so developing areas like those alongside an expansion doesn't seem smart.

That just seemed obvious to me, at least.

Relic content tends to feel more complete when its finished and even then when you already got a full relic it is VERY hard to want to do more of it just for the sake of it. So not only is the content very late but it also doesnt inspire much replayability.

They don't want to invalidate extreme and savage weapons too quickly. They have plenty of replayability considering that collecting all relic weapons is a thing people do and how people do relic weapon grinds for the glamour years after their release. Every relic grind in the game is a popular content to this day.

[Deveryn]

This is rather a presumptuous stance to take. Who's to say their time wasn't equally chill but they simply finished faster? Speaking for myself, I reached level 12 in about eight days. The few times I did grind, I tossed on a podcast or Youtube video in the background and vegged out. There was nothing "smarter" about either of our approaches. We just have different priorities.

Yeah, do whatever. My point was that people do things in a rush and then complain that there's nothing to do.

[Minarisweet]

Yeah, do whatever. My point was that people do things in a rush and then complain that there's nothing to do.

While there is people like this I think you are generalizing too much in an agressive way too... I've played a lot of mmos and xiv content, while I enjoy a lot, tends to be cut way too short unless you do insane stuff like getting relic weapons for all classes.

[ReynTime]

Content that is cleared in one run 99% of the time can't be considered "mid" core.
And content that takes a week or longer to be cleared with a static group can't be considered "mid" either.

It makes sense to classify midcore as content that has a fair chance of being cleared in one run, but has a high risk of leading into multiple wipes, or the run ending up in failure with randoms but not necessarily requiring much practice.
The only things that fall into that are Extreme trials, the instances within instances (BA, DR, Zadnor, etc), deep dungeon full clear and Unreals. Variant dungeons are significantly easier than that. While Criterion are already close to Savage in difficulty. They had the chance to make Criterion midcore, and they blew it. So have Savage and Savage-Savage instead. *slowclap*
But honestly if you enjoy deep dungeons there isn't exactly a complete lack of midcore content. If you don't... it's really dry.

[Amarande]

It makes sense to classify midcore as content that has a fair chance of being cleared in one run, but has a high risk of leading into multiple wipes, or the run ending up in failure with randoms but not necessarily requiring much practice.
The only things that fall into that are Extreme trials, the instances within instances (BA, DR, Zadnor, etc), deep dungeon full clear and Unreals. Variant dungeons are significantly easier than that. While Criterion are already close to Savage in difficulty. They had the chance to make Criterion midcore, and they blew it. So have Savage and Savage-Savage instead. *slowclap*
But honestly if you enjoy deep dungeons there isn't exactly a complete lack of midcore content. If you don't... it's really dry.

And yet -

a) even "not much practice" is too much for most people for 8's, who will insist on the Duty Complete Wall rather than risking having to bring players up to speed.

(This may be on SE as well, because instead of having a full range of mid-difficulty content a la other MMOs, the reliance is on a single fight that you might have to farm up to 99 times and is similar length to a Savage fight, so the pressure to have a 100% reliable farm is pretty big - in fact, to the point that easier Savage fights are often more chill than EX, and likely this is entirely because of the fact that a given group only needs the one weekly kill to be pointful vs. an EX group that needs to get several clears in one session to be worth the time)

b) the problem with Deep Dungeons is logistical combined with the bubble gum and popsicle stick server structure.

You really gotta do it all in one go, which is especially punishing for POTD, because otherwise nine times out of ten you aren't going to get the group back together, so stopping "for today" is just a hard stop. HOH is a little bit better due to the fact that a complete run is only 8 level sets, vs. POTD where 8 level sets in, you're practically just beginning.

And then there's the fact that Deep Dungeons don't handle DCs gracefully at all - in a solo run, it ends it immediately even if you reconnect, and even in a party run the group frequently gets put out of sync badly enough that, at best, you can finish the current floor set but the save file is no longer usable.

Which happens painfully often, between SE's grumpy servers and the situation of American ISPs.

Which is sad, because the concept is really good.

[Deveryn]

And yet -

a) even "not much practice" is too much for most people for 8's, who will insist on the Duty Complete Wall rather than risking having to bring players up to speed.

(This may be on SE as well, because instead of having a full range of mid-difficulty content a la other MMOs, the reliance is on a single fight that you might have to farm up to 99 times and is similar length to a Savage fight, so the pressure to have a 100% reliable farm is pretty big - in fact, to the point that easier Savage fights are often more chill than EX, and likely this is entirely because of the fact that a given group only needs the one weekly kill to be pointful vs. an EX group that needs to get several clears in one session to be worth the time)

b) the problem with Deep Dungeons is logistical combined with the bubble gum and popsicle stick server structure.

You really gotta do it all in one go, which is especially punishing for POTD, because otherwise nine times out of ten you aren't going to get the group back together, so stopping "for today" is just a hard stop. HOH is a little bit better due to the fact that a complete run is only 8 level sets, vs. POTD where 8 level sets in, you're practically just beginning.

a) is a player issue.

b) Deep Dungeons are just a matter of planning ahead with people. POTD takes up to 8 hours, so you split that in two. If your schedule doesn't allow it, don't even try it. Get to 50 and move on to HoH / Eureka.

overall: it's a team game and some people need to work on that.

[Amarande]

b) Deep Dungeons are just a matter of planning ahead with people. POTD takes up to 8 hours, so you split that in two. If your schedule doesn't allow it, don't even try it. Get to 50 and move on to HoH / Eureka.

Part of the problem is still the ISP situation though, I expect it's another thing like MCH that will never really be fixed because the developers live in a country well known for top flight ISP service, though (much like all those Korean games that depend on ping to the point that it's reasonable for South Koreans with their internet but in the USA fights are won and lost by where people live - except Western devs actually learned to work with that reality a long time ago especially after disasters like Quake II).

A single connection blip from any player and your 8 hours, even if everyone's there, is easily just plain toast due to the resultant desync within the group. And that was before the recovery time from a DC massively increased due to the anti-queue-jumper feature that tags anyone who tries to leap back in right away as a queue-dodger and hits them with the "Please wait and try logging in later" wait time (and this seems to be WAI, for that matter).

Then you realize the real trouble is you can't plan around any of this, because ISPs don't give you sufficient notice in the USA, usually the first time you even get to learn about maintenance is when it goes out and you check your phone and it helpfully tells you "oh yeah, there was maintenance scheduled for tonight!" (which is about as hard to find any advance warning of as the Vogon bulldozer plans). Try playing during the day to avoid that? Just as likely that it'll cut out on you mid afternoon with "oh yeah, we detected performance issues in the area so we're doin maintenance, we'll be back in just a couple hours, cheerio!"

How is anyone supposed to seriously do deep dungeons around that? It seems like too much of a crapshoot to go beyond 50, maybe 100 or so anymore ...

[Deveryn]

How is anyone supposed to seriously do deep dungeons around that? It seems like too much of a crapshoot to go beyond 50, maybe 100 or so anymore ...

I dunno. Shit happens. It's not too much of a crap shoot because plenty of people actually get through it. If it were a big enough issue, they would certainly address it somehow. Most of us don't worry about things like that and just go for it. If it comes up, it's not the end of the world. It's a little disappointing for a bit, but then we move on.

[Stasya]

This is honestly a major problem the dev team has with XIV. Many times the rewards for doing the content are not worth doing said content for.

Unfortunatly SE devs still live in limbo that savage is giga hard content and there are millions of groups struggling with dps/hps checks so they need additional *cough* *cough* WORTHLESS odd patches that bring nothing to horizontal progression nor additional ways to get bis (game is about having every class on 1 character btw)

Why the hell criterion/savage criterion doesnt give 630-635 loot? Why spent so much time on alliance raid only to make it useless glamour fiesta?

Oh you spent time making extreme trial? Useless 625 weapons and (useless) mount for collection? Thanks, here is my sub money i guess!