What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[FirstGearFirstGear]

From an outside perspective that doesn't allow itself to be biased by either side, Ancient life is more valuable by it's very nature of being complete and unsundered. I can't speak for you, but if I was given the choice to either save the human race or save all of the monkeys on the planet, I'd choose to save the humans. It's a regrettable decision, but the correct one.

Yeah, this is why I keep saying genuinely disturbing. You are declaring that anyone who doesn't meet your arbitrary standard of existence is worthless. You have written off 28 iterations of society, countless millions if not billions of people, untold works of art and culture all for the sake of one civilization that peaked and then was violently destroyed. All this despite the game telling you repeatedly and directly that the Ancients aren't inherently more valuable than the sundered.


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To put it more succinctly, you do realize you're the monkey, right?

Why would it have to be someone who hasn't seen SHB or EW? Surely your argument doesn't rely on your audience's ignorance, does it? Your response to my observation that uses all information available is to say "well what about asking someone who doesn't have all of the available information? I bet they'd agree with me!". Even if they did agree with you, that opinion would be uninformed.

It's to establish a baseline understanding of the world before revealing that everything that person has seen was technically built by "lesser beings". But you're right, the experiment has no guaranteed outcome because as this thread demonstrates, there are somehow people who play through most of FF14 before deciding they should kill themselves so Emet won't be sad any more.

In the case of a contradiction (such as the one in this game's story), I shall believe what is shown, rather than what is told. If the writers of the story don't like that, they should have written a better story with less contradictions.

What contradiction? In the worst possible interpretation, Venat actively did one genocide knowing it would lead to life later on and the hope it would preserve the entire universe. The Ascians chose to do a few dozen more.

Once it was revealed in the Q&A that Venat purposefully let those who would become the Unsundered Ascians escape the Sundering—despite knowing exactly what they would do—their actions and the consequences became blood on her hands as well as their own.

Venat placed a gun on the table. Emet and pals picked it up and started blasting everyone in range. Both bear responsibility, but one of them is pretty clear worse.

I also find it kind of funny that the example we have of Venat saving Ancient lives is just as bad as killing them apparently.

Venat also took her own people and reduced them to their current state of vulnerability and mortality against their own will, she then referred to those broken, incomplete remnants of her former peers as her children. Regardless of motive, I find that quite disturbing.

Again, this is you, this is your character, this is literally 99.999999% of the people you meet, this is the entire world that you have presumably sunk hundreds if not thousands of hours into. You are literally describing yourself as worthless and incomplete and only good for being murdered. I don't know how to make it clearer how insane that belief is

[AwesomeJr44]

You are literally describing yourself as worthless and incomplete and only good for being murdered. I don't know how to make it clearer how insane that belief is.

Again, this is you, this is your character, this is literally 99.999999% of the people you meet, this is the entire world that you have presumably sunk hundreds if not thousands of hours into. You are literally describing yourself as worthless and incomplete and only good for being murdered. I don't know how to make it clearer how insane that belief is

You are not your character. You are a human being who lives on or in the very close proximity of the planet Earth in the dimension of reality. You are also not a fractured piece of a larger whole whose existence is mutually exclusive to yours.

[Graeham]

The monkey comparison is from comparing a monkey to a human.

Guild it is very sorry for meme. Is the bad idea. Do not have the angry at Jr writer. Is not what he is say Top Gear.

Be using all the care Jr writer. Old book and movie it use code to representing minority people with the monkey or the ape chara. It is call the dehumanizer. Old Disney it accuse of it and infamous is the Jungler Book with King Louis. It still hurt and anger the people today and can find lot of the critic. Guild it support King Solus but chara should not think Guild giving the support to prejudice. It is bad idea. We have the better defense for King Solus who fighting for No Shadow God sake use the power of the friend.

[AwesomeJr44]

*Graeham Post*

Hey, I'll have you know I graduated at the top of my class at the writer's guild, and that my meme was approved by both guildmaster Themis and King Solus himself.

[HollowedDoll]

Yeah, this is why I keep saying genuinely disturbing. You are declaring that anyone who doesn't meet your arbitrary standard of existence is worthless. You have written off 28 iterations of society, countless millions if not billions of people, untold works of art and culture all for the sake of one civilization that peaked and then was violently destroyed. All this despite the game telling you repeatedly and directly that the Ancients aren't inherently more valuable than the sundered.

This really isn't about a whose standard of existence is worth more or less, Ancients came first, the sundered only being able to exist due to the mass genocide, the rightful owner of those souls would be the ones who were hacked into pieces, not the random personality that happened to come afterwards. That is my outsider perspective. It's a shit circumstance, the Dying Gasp probably puts it simplest, the victor will be hailed as a hero and it's loser as the villain, yet they're basically two sides of the same coin in terms of morality.

[Graeham]

Hey, I'll have you know I graduated at the top of my class at the writer's guild, and that my meme was approved by both guildmaster Themis and King Solus himself.

Elibuss he forget to be do paperwork to promote. So is still the Jr ghost writer not graduate ghost writer. Do not lose the heart is good try. But focusing on good think King Solus do so chara not have wrong idea.

[KageTokage]

Acknowledging mankind is in a flawed, unnatural state =/= declaring they're worthless and unfit to exist.

ShB's message that they still had a right to exist in spite of all those flaws and failings was a simple one that resonated with me.

EW feeling a weird need to try to drag down/dehumanize the Ancients and paint them as critically flawed to justify their end felt a touch...unnecessary by comparison. Unfortunately, it succeeded since at its most extreme I've seen people cheering for their destruction at the hands of the Final Days simply because they upset Hermes, which I find considerably more disturbing then the aforementioned assertion that Emet-Selch had a right to try to restore his people.

[Kazhar]

Venat placed a gun on the table. Emet and pals picked it up and started blasting everyone in range. Both bear responsibility, but one of them is pretty clear worse.

The analogy doesn't work. Venat placing a gun implies that all she did was giving them the tools, but that's not what happened. She gave them both the gun and the motivation to use it.

It would be like telling a guy in immense grief that killing someone would bring back his family, invite that someone to be in shooting range, giving the first person a gun and then being shocked they actually do it. There's a point when it goes beyond just complicity and it becomes actively malicious.

[Graeham]

The analogy doesn't work. Venat placing a gun implies that all she did was giving them the tools, but that's not what happened. She gave them both the gun and the motivation to use it.

It would be like telling a guy in immense grief that killing someone would bring back his family, invite that someone to be in shooting range, giving the first person a gun and then being shocked they actually do it. There's a point when it goes beyond just complicity and it becomes actively malicious.

Yes is good point. Venar tell the King Solus and the Elibuss and the Lahee that if he kill all the chara on all the world they come back necro in the isekai as his friend. Then Venar give the technologies to kill all the worlds. We can not find the cutescene where this is happen but is true.

[FirstGearFirstGear]

You are not your character. You are a human being who lives on or in the very close proximity of the planet Earth in the dimension of reality. You are also not a fractured piece of a larger whole whose existence is mutually exclusive to yours.

Perhaps I should be clearer. FF14, like a lot of good fiction, use its setting and characters to explore ideas that relate to the real world. Ideas like colonialism, prejudice, camaraderie, and the meaning of suffering. These are ideas that, even if explored in a fantastical space, are quite relevant to the ourselves as human beings. A large part of the reason that FF14 has such a good story is that it handles and explores these themes in a mature way. Its not high literature but its pretty high-tier for the medium and especially this specific genre.

This matters because CBU3 is pretty clear that we as real world human beings are far closer to the sundered people of FF14 than the unsundered. No, you are not your character but you are still a flawed, imperfect being doomed to suffer and one day die. You have to find meaning in your life to get out of bed in the morning and a large part of what CBU3 argues is the meaning to life is the companionship that we form with others, not just of our kind but of everyone on the whole of the star.

It also matters because the logic used by the Ascians and by their defenders, that all non-Ancients are subhuman and not worth preserving, is the logic used by loads of real world perpetrators of genocide. You yourself literally equated people to monkeys and said that it would be better to kill all the monkeys in the world than the humans. Its a real short skip from there to some very, very bad ideas about the actual world.

This really isn't about a whose standard of existence is worth more or less, Ancients came first, the sundered only being able to exist due to the mass genocide, the rightful owner of those souls would be the ones who were hacked into pieces, not the random personality that happened to come afterwards. That is my outsider perspective. It's a shit circumstance, the Dying Gasp probably puts it simplest, the victor will be hailed as a hero and it's loser as the villain, yet they're basically two sides of the same coin in terms of morality.

Why aren't the sundered the rightful owners of their own souls? Why do they have to give them up for people who died twelve thousand years ago (incidentally those people can themselves only exist through even more mass genocide)? And if you're going to make the argument that the Ancients were there first therefore they own them in perpetuity, I have very bad news for you about what claim you or your home country have to the land you're standing on.

If we are going for metaphors, she placed the gun on the table knowing with certainty that they would use it to start 'blasting everyone in range'. She is culpable for giving them the means to do so, she enabled it from the beginning and is every bit as guilty as they are.

The analogy doesn't work. Venat placing a gun implies that all she did was giving them the tools, but that's not what happened. She gave them both the gun and the motivation to use it.

It would be like telling a guy in immense grief that killing someone would bring back his family, invite that someone to be in shooting range, giving the first person a gun and then being shocked they actually do it. There's a point when it goes beyond just complicity and it becomes actively malicious.

The problem with this is that the Ascians still had to pull the trigger. At any point, Emet could have stepped back and realized what he was doing was wrong. He didn't until we threw an axe through his chest.

I am merely describing the sundered as exactly what they are; fragments of the ancients that came before them that only exist due to Venat's actions. Nor did I say they are only good for being murdered or worthless, you're extrapolating things from my post that I haven't even remotely implied.

You're trying to wriggle out of your own words.

Venat also took her own people and reduced them to their current state of vulnerability and mortality against their own will, she then referred to those broken, incomplete remnants of her former peers as her children. Regardless of motive, I find that quite disturbing.

If you want to claim you're just neutrally describing the sundered, you should probably avoid calling the condition of existence "disturbing".