What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Nayukhuut]

One of the big problems that shows up a lot in Endwalker is that, likely as a result of condensing two expansions' worth of story into one, they end up telling us a lot of things instead of showing them. Not only does it throw pacing and proper storytelling out the window, it also breaks a lot of the points they're trying to make, because we're not given the context to see how things ended up the way we're told they ended up.

For example, if they'd kept the point about the Convocation being tempered when they first summoned Zodiark, then it would've made more sense that Venat had been forced to go against them like that, because they would've been completely incapable of changing their course no matter what she said. They could've even made an argument about how many of those second set of sacrifices were actually voluntary versus tempered, if they wanted to keep the whole thing more morally gray. Still far from a perfect solution, but at least it would've had some sense of logic behind it.

Actually I would have been okay with that too. I come from a long history of liking the villains, and I do not mind a good tragic tale. If the story had shown us that the Ancients were actually beyond saving instead of showing us that they were reasonable, caring, and generally just like us, it would have been much easier to accept the way the story went. My main disconnect comes from so many of the quests and the scenes showing us one thing, but then the written part of the story telling us something different.

Edit: I still would have been irked that Venat didn't tell her people what was up and let it get to that point, mind you. However, if the actual people had been shown to be Tempered into a corrupted shadow of their former selves by the time the Sundering happened, it would have changed the story, and my response to it, quite a bit.

[Absimiliard]

For example, if they'd kept the point about the Convocation being tempered when they first summoned Zodiark, then it would've made more sense that Venat had been forced to go against them like that, because they would've been completely incapable of changing their course no matter what she said. They could've even made an argument about how many of those second set of sacrifices were actually voluntary versus tempered, if they wanted to keep the whole thing more morally gray. Still far from a perfect solution, but at least it would've had some sense of logic behind it.

I think they intended for this to still be in play, but they wound up absolutely shooting it in the foot through Emet-Selch's activities. It's very difficult to sell the Convocation as properly tempered when you've got this dude over here making it abundantly clear he does whatever he wants, up to and including repeated attempts to discard his duty in favor of simply living with the sundered. Of the three unsundered, only Lahabrea really came off as tempered, but it turns out that had less to do with his tempering and more to do with the fact he'd have been out of his mind with or without Zodiark's influence.

If nothing else, we're shown any sundered they chose to elevate would become hopelessly tempered the instant they took on their original self's memories. So it's there, it's just... I guess the ancients kinda didn't give a good damn?

[TheMightyMollusk]

If nothing else, we're shown any sundered they chose to elevate would become hopelessly tempered the instant they took on their original self's memories. So it's there, it's just... I guess the ancients kinda didn't give a good damn?

Didn't work out that way for Fandaniel, though. (Or Gaia, but we could argue there that Mitron was half-mad from his time in Eden and screwed up the process.)

[Lunaxia]

Yeh. It really feels like at times that they started with a different story and then decided to suddenly shift track halfway through. Then instead of changing the events to back up their new vision, they just sorta told us told us what they wanted us to think and to ignore anything we had seen before that.

Until Yoshida descends from on high and tells me otherwise, I'll never not be convinced that something along those lines was their original course of action all along in regards to Zodiark and the tempering, but at the last second they went back on it when they made the decision to go through with the one expansion pack and suddenly decided they wanted to do something really "profound" and "uplifting" for the ending instead, and narrative coherency be damned. They were banking on the poignancy of the message to resound with the playerbase and compensate for the flimsy plot elements, but for people who were actually here for their ability to tell a decent story, it just wound up being incredibly disappointing.

[Swordsman]

Yeh. It really feels like at times that they started with a different story and then decided to suddenly shift track halfway through. Then instead of changing the events to back up their new vision, they just sorta told us told us what they wanted us to think and to ignore anything we had seen before that.

One I can think of off the top of my head is have it so that she was fighting Zodiark because she didn't believe in more sacrifices, and then when her attack broke him into pieces it had the unforeseen consequence of doing it to the whole planet.

Yeah, this was one of the major gripes I had with the EW MSQ. I liked the original story in ShB where the sundering was a result of a war between Hydaelyn and Zodiark. But I guess the writers instead chose to go off on some different route that was more "philosophical" and "impressive" in their opinion.

Until Yoshida descends from on high and tells me otherwise, I'll never not be convinced that something along those lines was their original course of action all along in regards to Zodiark and the tempering, but at the last second they went back on it when they made the decision to go through with the one expansion pack and suddenly decided they wanted to do something really "profound" and "uplifting" for the ending instead, and narrative coherency be damned. They were banking on the poignancy of the message to resound with the playerbase and compensate for the flimsy plot elements, but for people who were actually here for their ability to tell a decent story, it just wound up being incredibly disappointing.

That's exactly what I think too. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Theodric]

I think what's strange to me is the insinuation that acts such as genocide, eugenics and racial replacement are only villainous if and when the game says so. Perhaps that is the real reason why some in this thread are so adverse to any meaningful criticism or accountability for Venat.

Given that Venat's actions are no accident it's easy to consider her to be far worse than the likes of Valens based on the sheer scale and consequences of her actions. Valens will eventually fade from the annals of history and his actions were limited to specific locales. Nor was he ever praised for what he did. The consequences of Venat's actions will persist for as long as Etheirys exists. Which, in turn, is also why the whole 'it'd be petty to criticise her' doesn't really hold up.

It's not like the game ceased to criticise those responsible for mass death amongst the antagonists even after they were dead and buried but as with many things being brought up in defense of Venat, it's always very selective as to when and where they ought to reply.

[Xirean]

Random topic change but I want people's thoughts. Is the fight against Zeromus a better fight then against Zodiark?

[Banriikku]

Random topic change but I want people's thoughts. Is the fight against Zeromus a better fight then against Zodiark?

Whats the diffrence ?
There is not much, both fight had the same arena, the boss model works the same and looks similar, mechanics are similar to each other, with some fluff here there but overall its the same fight again.

With the same result " we did not really win, somebody else did". Its story telling Wow style and as you can read, not my favorit way of story telling. I liked the Voice of Zodiark more, the voice and the way of screaming and yelling at you. While Zeromus was... more like whine and wail (maybe lament but it was not interesting nor pulled it hearthstrings) and annoyed me really fast. The music both times were very good, as the visiuals and animations.

So which one is better? Sorry but both, sure both fight have their pro and cons but both are well put together and even have the same story telling problem... so both. Also the 2 encounter are not hard to learn and easy to farm. So thats a plus with my luck.... Tsukuyomi Extreme - my FC and i collected 29 Aquariums before we got all the mounts and we are static group for EX-Farm. The weapons are both not something i fancy.

[Xirean]

I'm rather confused why there's accusations of moving goal posts when it really just seems like massive miscommunication/misunderstanding. It really seems like 2 people having 2 completely different conversations at each other with some of this back and forth.

[Turtledeluxe]

he lacked faith in her people.

Obviously you missed the key moments of Endwalker while dissecting an MMORPG for what you would prefer the story to be because yes...the plot concedes that Venat has a bit of a hangup and "cannot return to the star as long as they need help". Part of what makes her final battle so cathartic is that she's free of that obligation she's been feeling. It's not a lack of faith-- she tells you in the fourth wall break conversation (which is an incredible scene) her real reasons for wanting to live and it's not really just because people need help. That's why one of the options is to call back to her by name and one is about finding out how to walk. Because part of her story is Venat the traveler and the other part is her being a savior figure for humanity. You're all also calling out her choices as though she doesn't even talk about them or her reasoning. Play the trial again or something, idk. She knows what the sundering has wrought and she's not exactly thrilled, she wasn't even that optimistic about the odds and was keeping the Ascians basically at bay throughout the expansions. She also admits to failure "time and time again". Would it be nice if she didn't have to resort to sundering...possibly? That's not the story of the game.

You saying she could've done better or could've done things differently is just your opinion, and that's fine. It just doesn't make the story better-- in fact it makes it worse. I think again, you're self indulging because you are egotistically dismissing what happened as "genocide" and you could've done (as in written) so much better. OK

In fact I would go even farther and say, Venat appealing to the Convocation is dumb and robs the entire story of the major theme of growth. Yes, the sundering sucks and rendered humanity into imperfect and trivial beings. But it also taught them to contend with the Final Days and defeat the threat-- a problem caused by the Ancients. You seem to wish it somehow ended up that they solved their own problem-- that just sounds boring and unsurprising.

Random topic change but I want people's thoughts. Is the fight against Zeromus a better fight then against Zodiark?

I think they're the same to be honest. Trials are generally gauged in difficulty by how they feel day one. People learn the fight and then it seems easy. So people will be biased and tell you Zeromus is better because by now, Zodiark feels more stale and predictable.