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  1. #1
    Player
    Nanne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    446
    Character
    Piush Stumbleine
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 90
    Is this about FL or CC or overall?
    (0)

  2. #2
    Player RyanCousland's Avatar
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    Dec 2020
    Posts
    377
    Character
    Rion Cousland
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Rogue Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Nanne View Post
    Is this about FL or CC or overall?
    overall prior to 6.1 PLD could solo kill in duels had great utility in FL and Feast
    (0)

  3. #3
    Player
    Reinhardt_Azureheim's Avatar
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    Oct 2017
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    2,570
    Character
    Reinhardt Azureheim
    World
    Alpha
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanCousland View Post
    [...]
    Ok for starters, please just edit your post and add additional quotes + comments. This circumvents the 3000 character limit from the initial post and condenses everything in one comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanCousland View Post
    Cover IS dependent on your teammates skill these are not mutually exclusive thereby making cover THE issue, and when you say "stick around" how exactly do you think that scenario plays out? is PLD doing damage or sacrifices damage for futile attempt to survive? or is the teammate using this opportunity to heal or do damage? how many opponents are there? if you havent played through these scenarios let alone thought about them then i can tell you it always ends with same results, and if what im inferring from your statement that the 20y is a time saver (to an extent) and the tether is 10y to maintain then yeah im aware of that, the running around part i mentioned was in reference to maintain that 10y connection, and my original point to your "remedy" was how does a 20y gap closer animation lock out weigh the time it takes for cover's effect to be useful/activate? (especially if your teammate has any Debuffs/DOTS on them)
    I believe you misunderstood what I am saying. I never said they are mutually exclusive - I said that if your teammate is the one running away while you already used cover (and hopefully used a macro for it with "Covering <teammate>!" in it) then you did your part, Cover in what the ability is supposed to be did its part and your teammate is the one being the issue.

    I never said anything about sticking around with a teammate who is clearly overextending. If they dive a backline alone and get gobbled up by four teammates or decide to not retreat in a 2v4/2v5 scenario with you, shame on them because you shouldn't Cover that and rather run to ensure your LB charges up.

    And before you assume and lecture me about situations with Cover and how animations about it may pan out, I actually play Paladin along with Dark Knight as my main jobs in PvP. The dash animation lock isn't so utterly damning as you make it out to be. For an ability of this caliber to give your teammate a second chance in life, the short wind-up is fair. I simply got used to it by reacting earlier rather than later.
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanCousland View Post
    I'm pretty sure i made it clear that im aware of how to use cover, but perhaps i didnt expand in detail the issue with each of these combinations
    1: its obvious any PLD would use cover and LB but again cover is useless if it exceeds 10y(and please dont repeat the LB line because this is about cover)
    2: Guard and cover is a dps loss as well as a hindrance in mobility
    3: HS and cover only works well depending on the matchup of how many opponents youre facing (2v4 is death sentence for PLD with cover because realistically its 1v4)

    im aware of PLD toolkit but its seems youre arguments are coming from a perfect play mentality/scenarios in which im not sure how PVP is in EU or JP but in NA it is rarely that
    also im not even going to get into the fact that cover is the only skill that cant be used in 1v1
    I am glad you made it sure you know, but frankly I will have to repeat certain things since you can't talk about Cover one-dimensionally since it is a synergy-based ability.
    1.) Once again, your teammates have skill issues. If your covered teammate insists on running away, that's on them not you.
    2.) This isn't PvE, Paladin DPS doesn't matter as much as you want it does and a DPS loss by using Guardian-Guard is smaller than a DPS loss from either you or your teammate dying because that costs your team 15s+ LB charge time + about 20s or more of damage downtime from one player over 5s you not dpsing. If you care this much about your damage, you should give Dark Knight or Gunbreaker a serious consideration.
    3.) Correct, this one is match-up dependent, though I kind of expected to not having to mention it.

    About intended/perfect play - I am sorry to tell you this, but looking at any abilities through the scope of the average player or the lowest common denominator is generally bad practice at job balancing. Just because your region may have a surplus of such players does not mean you should balance abilities around them.

    Also no offense, "I am not even going to get into the fact that cover can't be used in 1v1" yeah no, this is like complaining SCH damage is low in 1v1 because you can't spread dots or damage buffs. Certain jobs are not made for 1v1.

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanCousland View Post
    My comparison was in response to you saying cover now is "broken" when compared to pre 6.1, HG + cover had the invul as well as the mobility that is currently lacking
    Hallowed also had +30s/+60s(pre-buff) the cooldown of Guard, Cover had a +20% dmg taken if they attacked you directly and there was no Elixir your teammate could make use of in the cover time. Also your own life tended to be relatively important as a medal carrier, particularly when Heavy Medal debuff was still around. You also were constantly duking it out as the objective were the players themselves in rather small arenas, so the mobility wasn't as great as you'd try to tell me.

    If this is about Frontline/Rival Wings, fair enough. Then again, jobs never got balanced around those modes - at most they got terrible interactions fixed (Phalanx + Cover on Onsal capping).
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanCousland View Post
    [1]Name me another LB in which you can disregard half of its utility/purpose because thats what this response sounds like however i might be wrong in inferring [2] also Contradance is a counter not the other way around much like RPR. [3] And the idea that this LB is S tier is misnomer if it were the case then there would be more PLD players but there is not, aside from the Onsal period. PLD is at the bottom in terms of player usage
    1.) First of all - you aren't disregarding half of the purpose, you are just having it delayed. If you actually got CCed for 10s, had no Purify for it and had "Blade of Faith ready" run out then that is tough but again I fail to see why people would waste their stuns on you like this.
    2.) The order of use matters here. An aggressive Contradance gets countered by Phalanx, a Contradance tail-ending the duration of Phalanx counters Phalanx. Tenebrae Lemurum (RPR) spreads out players and blocks actions with Hysteria. You either use it before the Paladin manages to use Phalanx or tail-end it after Phalanx. Otherwise you use either of it mid-way defensively as an AOE "silence".

    In terms of general practice though, Phalanx generally is used after Contradance, as the animation starting and Charmed applying being delayed from another, which is where Paladins use it.
    3.) Phalanx is S-tier utility. It is unparalleled defensive value both for pushing or holding a point as a team. Your argument about player usage makes no sense, as the average player is drawn to high damage numbers and popping off over being a support - it does not lessen how strong this ability let alone Paladin is.
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanCousland View Post
    I bring it up all the time because i get the same response ....all....the...time,even your reply can be found if you scroll up but in other words lets gatekeep PLD as the sacrificial lamb, is that your point? because theres multiple scenarios in which using chain stun method on the Lamb doesnt move the needle for W or has the opposite result for a L
    "Gatekeep PLD as the sacrificial lamb" - ...what? Your job design with Cover in it literally is using your own life to protect another. If you get chain stunned from Covering a teammate, you saved a teammate and wasted a team a ton of stuns. You could also use Purify along with it so you WOULDN'T get chain stunned. And if you get stunned without Cover during Phalanx... then I am sorry, but you baiting those stuns is like the greatest W a tank in any game could hope for. Do you have any idea how many people might be thankful that they hit you and not them?
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanCousland View Post
    so why not just increase the CD to 15? or would that be broken despite WAR having an aoe stun that has the same recast as current sheildbash. Hell if it makes you feel better they could give 15s intervene the stun affect along with an aniation lock of sheildbash and id prefer that over current
    I fail to see the point of this addition. You essentially only just moved Shield Bash onto Intervene to make "space" for Holy Spirit and giving it Shield Bash's cooldown. That is just making your stun more predictable and less flexible when you want to be mobile but keep your stun.

    It would be smarter attaching "Requiescat" as a proc after Confiteor and Confiteor turning into Holy Spirit/Circle for 2-3 uses, if you really want it back.

    Like I'm sorry if I am on a huge disagreement with you, but what I am understanding is you are either wanting Paladin to do more than it should or your view on how good Paladin's kit is skewed because your teammates genuinely drag you down. I mentioned this earlier and it is really not meant with malice - consider dropping Paladin for another job if you can't enjoy for what it is worth.
    (1)

  4. #4
    Player RyanCousland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Posts
    377
    Character
    Rion Cousland
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Rogue Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim View Post
    Ok for starters, please just edit your post and add additional quotes + comments. This circumvents the 3000 character limit from the initial post and condenses everything in one comment.
    tried didnt work for me, but The reason i took it into segments individually is because there sees to be a retention or cognitive dissonance issue with some of not only your responses but others as well which i will illuminate for you,also i dont enjoy doing it this way it limits me in the forum
    (0)
    Last edited by RyanCousland; 01-19-2023 at 04:42 PM.

  5. #5
    Player RyanCousland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Posts
    377
    Character
    Rion Cousland
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Rogue Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim View Post
    I believe you misunderstood what I am saying. I never said they are mutually exclusive - I said that if your teammate is the one running away while you already used cover (and hopefully used a macro for it with "Covering <teammate>!" in it) then you did your part, Cover in what the ability is supposed to be did its part and your teammate is the one being the issue.
    A skill that becomes ineffective/effective based on the RNG skillset/awareness of another is by its very nature is useless, what good is cover if the 10y tether is broken in the 1st second of activation that doesn't utilize its intended purpose ? what other skill or class has two draw backs with one gain? the response only you have is this same one, how does that help PLD?
    (0)
    Last edited by RyanCousland; 01-19-2023 at 04:28 PM.

  6. #6
    Player
    Reinhardt_Azureheim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    2,570
    Character
    Reinhardt Azureheim
    World
    Alpha
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanCousland View Post
    A skill that becomes ineffective/effective based on the RNG skillset/awareness of another is by its very nature is useless, what good is cover if the 10y tether is broken in the 1st second of activation that doesn't utilize its intended purpose ? what other skill or class has two draw backs with one gain? the response only you have is this same one, how does that help PLD?
    Your teammates have skill issue. Cover is beyond stupid in ranks where people know what to do with Cover, stop complaining about the "drawbacks" that depend on you using mitigation for yourself and the awareness of your teammates.
    (0)

  7. #7
    Player RyanCousland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Posts
    377
    Character
    Rion Cousland
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Rogue Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim View Post
    Your teammates have skill issue. Cover is beyond stupid in ranks where people know what to do with Cover, stop complaining about the "drawbacks" that depend on you using mitigation for yourself and the awareness of your teammates.
    again im pretty sure we've extensively gone into how to mitigate with cover, also how is a major factor regarding a skills utility not worth mentioning? i get that you frame the use of cover in minority of cases but is that in any way how anything works? the answer no solutions are based on the majority
    (0)
    Last edited by RyanCousland; 01-19-2023 at 06:02 PM.

  8. #8
    Player RyanCousland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Posts
    377
    Character
    Rion Cousland
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Rogue Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim View Post
    I never said anything about sticking around with a teammate who is clearly overextending. If they dive a backline alone and get gobbled up by four teammates or decide to not retreat in a 2v4/2v5 scenario with you, shame on them because you shouldn't Cover that and rather run to ensure your LB charges up.
    you can admit this scenario happens but not the plethora of others that render cover useless
    (0)

  9. #9
    Player RyanCousland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Posts
    377
    Character
    Rion Cousland
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Rogue Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim View Post
    before you assume and lecture me about situations with Cover and how animations about it may pan out, I actually play Paladin along with Dark Knight as my main jobs in PvP. The dash animation lock isn't so utterly damning as you make it out to be. For an ability of this caliber to give your teammate a second chance in life, the short wind-up is fair. I simply got used to it by reacting earlier rather than later.
    I think you should play PLD more because if you truly "main" it you'd have the forethought to recognize these scenarios with your responses, but you find cover not as troubling which is subjective so ill leave it at that.
    (0)
    Last edited by RyanCousland; 01-19-2023 at 04:29 PM.

  10. #10
    Player
    Reinhardt_Azureheim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    2,570
    Character
    Reinhardt Azureheim
    World
    Alpha
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanCousland View Post
    I think you should play PLD more because if you truly "main" it you'd have the forethought to recognize these scenarios with your responses, but you find cover not as troubling which is subjective so ill leave it at that.
    Actually rich coming from the guy who complains about the "issues" an ability has that depends on his team not being a bunch of crayon-eaters. I'll continue playing where people aren't doing this, thank you very much.
    (0)

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