The Problem with Healer Feedback, and requested changes

[Renathras]

No. At least not now. If we were talking about on SGE's release, yeah.
...
The only way we'd see your idea of a DoT-Nuke healer possibly being accepted is if its a brand new one coming out.

Okay, something to discuss.

Why...exactly do you think "not now" but that a NEW released healer could do it?

And I'm not trying to be smarmy and have no tone here, I'm genuinely curious. SGE was just released with this model, so if they just didn't release SGE until 7.0 but released it with this model as "the beginner healer" while upping the complexity of the other three, why would that be better?

SGE players right now are used to SGE as it is right now, so why would they be averse to it being as it is right now - something that doesn't seem to be bothering people that newly picked up the Job and have no historic attachment to keep them playing it if they don't like it?

SGE is brand new, it's just a year old.

And been doing PotD and HoH both on SGE and find it pretty fun. Plegma at a lower level (especially now with the shorter CD and 2 stacks) gets a lot of use when I want to burst or just have another button to push, and I pre-Eu Diagnosis shield myself, so lots of Addersting. If Toxicon was damage neutral, it would probably have the most active solo playstyle other than MAYBE SCH as it is right now.

I'm kind of curious why (a) you think it staying the same would not work and (b) why you think a brand new Job (presumably with some different aesthetic or something?) would work?

.

EDIT: That is:

Why can no existing healer - all of which currently use a simple model - not maintain a simple model?

Even the ones (definitely SGE and arguably WHM) who have always had a model like this for their lifetime and have a precedent of having a model like the present one?

And why would a new Job be allowed to do this? What would be different about a new Job vs the already existing Jobs?

(And the answer shouldn't be "Well, then no one would have to change away from a Job they currently use", because the change would be forcing people who want simpler gameplay to change to the new Job - why should they be the ones forced to change when SGE, in particular, has always been this way its entire existence?)

[ASkellington]

I'm kind of curious why (a) you think it staying the same would not work and (b) why you think a brand new Job (presumably with some different aesthetic or something?) would work?

Because I don't exactly consider SGE to be a 1 nuke 1 DoT healer. You'd need to remove Phlegma and Toxicon for that, but, even if we just keep it as is, people still want it to be the more dps oriented healer.

That said, if SGE were to stay the same, and we still want it to be the DPS healer, 1 - fix Toxicon. Make it proc with more than just E. Diagnosis, perhaps Haima or some such. 2, give it an AOE Kardia so it can heal the party while it does damage.

[Renathras]

Because I don't exactly consider SGE to be a 1 nuke 1 DoT healer.

No healer is. Plegma is on the same CD as Assize (Assize is an oGCD, but it's a physical button you press*), and Misery exists as a resource spending attack (different then, but an extra button like, Toxicon).

even if we just keep it as is, people still want it to be the more dps oriented healer.

And WHM is the "simple healer with more of a focus on powerful direct healing" and people still want it to be that. So...this argument would imply we should change SGE but leave WHM alone, doesn't it?

That said, if SGE were to stay the same, and we still want it to be the DPS healer, 1 - fix Toxicon. Make it proc with more than just E. Diagnosis, perhaps Haima or some such. 2, give it an AOE Kardia so it can heal the party while it does damage.

I don't disagree with this. Toxicon being damage neutral would fix a lot of the issues anyway. It would lower the skill ceiling, but it would make the button more routinely useful. They also added in 6.3 that it procs off of Eu Prognosis (specifically, when the shield ON YOU from Eu Prognosis breaks). So if it was damage neutral, that would make the only cost of using both Eukrasia shields be the MP cost since the damage would be refunded. Though I suppose it would be more of a side grade in terms of optimization as there'd now be a reason to stock 2 Addersting stacks to blow during burst windows along with Phlegma, I guess?

I've also been advocating to have an AOE Kardia since I first got my hands on SGE. I think honestly Krasis and possibly Pepsis should be removed and one turned into an AOE Kardia for 3-4 GCDs so the SGE could use it to proc party healing.

Though "and we still want it to be the DPS healer" - no, we'd be making WHM, SCH, and AST the DPS healers.

.

EDIT: On the asterisk:

I am a bit curious why oGCDs don't count as buttons. And again, I'm being serious here, not antagonistic. Why is Phlegma an acknowledge "distinct" damage tool but Assize is not? Is it because no charges on Assize makes it something you burn on CD rather than use more deliberately? Or is it just "oGCDs don't count", despite of the things non-healers have is oGCDs used for damage. If we had a model where healers had 4-5 oGCD damage spells, would that not count as more DPS engaging? Would it only count if they were GCDs?

If so, why? Is there something more satisfying about pressing 1-2-3-4-5 with 2.5 sec gaps vs 1-2 1-3 1-4 1-5 as weaves?

[ForsakenRoe]

If so, why? Is there something more satisfying about pressing 1-2-3-4-5 with 2.5 sec gaps vs 1-2 1-3 1-4 1-5 as weaves?

To some, yes. There's a reason I find GNB to be more interesting than current DRK, and old SB DRK more interesting than that. Rather than 1-2 1-3 1-4, it was the reverse for GNB, 1-4 2-4 3-4 cos of Continuation. You can see when you go into lower level content and lose Continuation, Gnashing Fang does not feel like it flows properly without it. Now they've changed it to just be one button instead of 3 for the GF combo, but it still has the 121212, compared to say DRK or WAR's 111 of FellCleave or Bloodspiller spam. Similarly, WHM used to have Fluid Aura doing OGCD damage every 15s. Having that back would be cool

The part about SGE identity and WHM identity (simple healer, focus on powerful direct healing), the problem with the SGE idea is that it's not the players that gave it the 'DPS oriented healer' moniker first. It was Yoshi-P, recommending people who enjoy 'doing damage as healer' to try it because 'it has ways to heal by doing damage'. We now know that 'ways' meant 'Pneuma once per 2 mins, and Kardia as targetted Embrace', which is a little disappointing to some. If they had announced that it'd be simple and effective to play, a lot of the more hardcore players would have been able to go 'I'll just stick to SCH cos ED optimization is my jam', and less upset would have occurred. It's the misleading/mistranslated 'it heals by do damage' that caused disappointment. I reckon if you were to whack my SGE 'it heals by doing damage, but like, for real' design into the game people from all skill levels would love it, but I might be a little biased on that one.

I agree with Skel, the best chance you have of getting the majority to 'accept' a healer being 1 dot 1 nuke design would be adding a new one, and setting the identity as such from the announcement. I'd accept an announcement saying 'this healer has one dot one nuke', or if the same were to apply to a Tank. I'd be disappointed that it's not my jam sure, but at least I'm not being misled about what to expect from it as I was with SGE. I'd just level that new healer to max and never touch it again, as I do with some other classes in the game like BLM or BRD or MNK.

That said, if SGE were to stay the same, and we still want it to be the DPS healer, 1 - fix Toxicon. Make it proc with more than just E. Diagnosis, perhaps Haima or some such. 2, give it an AOE Kardia so it can heal the party while it does damage.

Previously mentioned SGE design has solutions for exactly these points,
1: Toxicon is fully reworked to be a different, more integrated system for damage, and the E.Diag/E.PRog proc is changed to 'grants one free use of Phlegma'. Reduces the DPS loss from 330 down to just 60, which is probably made up for by using it inside raidbuffs.
and 2: Several ways to augment Kardia are suggested, as the main gameplay interactivity. Name of the game is 'how can I best use my MP to augment Kardia, in such a way that I can keep my team alive BY DPSing, rather than alongside DPSing?' AOE Kardia is one of those augments because that fruit is so low hanging it's touching the floor

[Shurrikhan]

I am a bit curious why oGCDs don't count as buttons. And again, I'm being serious here, not antagonistic. Why is Phlegma an acknowledge "distinct" damage tool but Assize is not? Is it because no charges on Assize makes it something you burn on CD rather than use more deliberately? Or is it just "oGCDs don't count", despite of the things non-healers have is oGCDs used for damage. If we had a model where healers had 4-5 oGCD damage spells, would that not count as more DPS engaging? Would it only count if they were GCDs?

That's a fair question. I think it mostly comes down to the simple fact that an oGCD like Assize, even though it bundles some healing into it (and is already more interesting for that fact that a pure damage spell with similarly no other interactions would be, since timing could potentially then net skipped GCDs of heal) doesn't so provide what feels like an alternative in rhythm to fillers like Dosis. The oGCDs may instead feel only like a different topping on the same unvaried meal.

You'll see that opinion just about everywhere, though, be it r/ffxivdiscussion, r/ffxiv, the YouTube comments, or in-game. There's something about a priority list --especially if situationally varied-- moving down more than a single line of uptime (GCD or oGCD) that makes it feel more significantly like an alternative rather than just "Always hit this button... and maybe also hit whatever's come off CD (that won't get in the way of hitting this button anyways)."

For those with the plugins or low enough ping to handle it despite the game's poor netcode, it'd likely be cool when oGCDs shake up their priority order, too. (On probably the furthest extension of that, a lot of early NIN mains I knew liked that they could let Shadowfang fall off as briefly as possible, without replacing it early, through choosing whether to Raiton or Fuma, or to Suiton into TA in the same GCD gap, where GCD and oGCDs could optionally further fight for uptime and therefore made each other feel more like real choices.)

Also aside: It occurs to me that I really hate DoTs - as I've mentioned before - but don't dislike non-DoT spells.

Quick question:

If the icons for your DoTs/HoTs (without needing plugins) tracked the timer of their respective debuffs on your current target (last living target if none selected), would DoTs still annoy you, or would they just feel more like... soft-CDs?

[ASkellington]

EDIT: On the asterisk:

I am a bit curious why oGCDs don't count as buttons. And again, I'm being serious here, not antagonistic. Why is Phlegma an acknowledge "distinct" damage tool but Assize is not? Is it because no charges on Assize makes it something you burn on CD rather than use more deliberately? Or is it just "oGCDs don't count", despite of the things non-healers have is oGCDs used for damage. If we had a model where healers had 4-5 oGCD damage spells, would that not count as more DPS engaging? Would it only count if they were GCDs?

If so, why? Is there something more satisfying about pressing 1-2-3-4-5 with 2.5 sec gaps vs 1-2 1-3 1-4 1-5 as weaves?

Assize, Macrocosmos and Earthly Star are not dps buttons. They heal and do damage. They aren't a strict dps tool. Phlegma does DPS and nothing else. Toxicon does DPS and nothing else. Misery does DPS and nothing else. Those are dps tools. Not healing tools. In a "perfect world" ES, Assize and Macro would be used ONLY to heal and have the bonus of doing damage. Only Macro does this, because there's 0 reason to not use Assize and ES on CD for extra damage when you have so many healing tools to "make up for them being on CD".

oGCDs do not count because they do not interrupt GCD spam. AST weaving cards inbetween Malefics for example don't amount to much in being satisfying. Because whether or not I have cards I'm still DPS spamming 1 button.

Where as GNB has Gnashing Fang on the GCD with Continuation on the oGCD to go with it. That is more satisfying to me.

[Shurrikhan]

Assize, Macrocosmos and Earthly Star are not dps buttons. They heal and do damage. They aren't a strict dps tool.

Not disagreeing that those don't exactly feel like offensive "rotational kit" or the like, but...

I kinda feel like those skills offer more to the the feeling of the kit than a pure dps button would, because of that bundled healing.

Ultimately, you're --in the balance of things-- sacrificing maybe 20-30 filler attack potency (20-30 per filler attack in 100% offensive uptime would be 440-660 potency per minute, or 293-440 potency per Assize's CD) in order to divert that damage over to this tool balanced at being used nearly on CD, but that healing component leaves you a little something more to potentially leverage skillfully by occasionally NOT hitting it on CD (because the damage event isn't every 40s and the healing component would otherwise go to waste). I... actually really like that.

Granted, much like whether oGCDs provide any noticeable alternative to that otherwise over-repetitive flow of filler spam (that I... haphazardly... discussed above), that depends on their contexts. If you'd never have any real benefit to holding onto Assize briefly (because you wouldn't need to use Medica/M2/C3 anyways even if you wasted the heal), then that difference won't yet add anything.

I feel like those are important skills to have for that reason though; they make great indicators as to whether requirements are too low or making each other too redundant, etc.

[ASkellington]

Not disagreeing that those don't exactly feel like offensive "rotational kit" or the like, but...

I kinda feel like those skills offer more to the the feeling of the kit than a pure dps button would, because of that bundled healing.

Ultimately, you're --in the balance of things-- sacrificing maybe 20-30 filler attack potency (20-30 per filler attack in 100% offensive uptime would be 440-660 potency per minute, or 293-440 potency per Assize's CD) in order to divert that damage over to this tool balanced at being used nearly on CD, but that healing component leaves you a little something more to potentially leverage skillfully by occasionally NOT hitting it on CD (because the damage event isn't every 40s and the healing component would otherwise go to waste). I... actually really like that.

Granted, much like whether oGCDs provide any noticeable alternative to that otherwise over-repetitive flow of filler spam (that I... haphazardly... discussed above), that depends on their contexts. If you'd never have any real benefit to holding onto Assize briefly (because you wouldn't need to use Medica/M2/C3 anyways even if you wasted the heal), then that difference won't yet add anything.

I feel like those are important skills to have for that reason though; they make great indicators as to whether requirements are too low or making each other too redundant, etc.

I don't feel the same way because there is 0 reason for me to hold Assize or ES when I have other healing tools for its spot with how infrequent the healing currently is in most 90 content.

Where as at 70 I have a much more limited oGCD kit, meaning that my usage of ES matters more and I can't spend it on solely dps.

I want to be rewarded by holding on to ES and placing it correctly (which the current size denies me reduce it to 20y) and timing it so that the big heal comes in after a devastating mechanic to heal the party to full. My issue is that there is no reason for me to when damage is so infrequent and scripted that generally when I place it on cool down it does it any way, so what's the point in holding it?

[Shurrikhan]

I don't feel the same way because there is 0 reason for me to hold Assize or ES when I have other healing tools for its spot with how infrequent the healing currently is in most 90 content.

Right, but we could say the same thing for virtually any layer of complexity without its sufficient context. I feel like we should take that as a cue to (re)include those contexts (where not simply a convolution -- more on that later, if need be) rather than simply letting the skills be shallowed out, too, just because they're not distinct within this (already problematic / greatly improvable) situation.

Not saying you're trying to shallow out anything or whatnot, but... if I just feel like if we treat a thing that very easily could have reason to be more than just "hit on CD," as of no difference from something that has literally nothing else going for it... then we're also largely excusing poor context (mismatch between fight design and kit tuning, relative tuning between actions being so off-kilter that it needlessly leaves many actions virtually untouched, etc.).

That's the reason for my focus on "yet". Assize, etc., don't often enough do that yet. But the contexts really, really should be changed to make they so they can do that something more, since they're far from the only abilities/actions made significantly less interesting from a lack of space for leveraging different ways or qualities of use.

Sorry if that largely comes down to framing or semantics. I just feel like that is a difference in perspective that may be pretty important as we go forward (or even just try not to devolve further).

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I am a bit curious why oGCDs don't count as buttons. And again, I'm being serious here, not antagonistic. Why is Phlegma an acknowledge "distinct" damage tool but Assize is not? Is it because no charges on Assize makes it something you burn on CD rather than use more deliberately? Or is it just "oGCDs don't count", despite of the things non-healers have is oGCDs used for damage.

Phlegma breaks my Dosis spams however super brief that moment is, Assize do not stop me from Glare spams. ... Which is a gross simplification from my end, but everybody else already added the relevant points.

[...]If we had a model where healers had 4-5 oGCD damage spells, would that not count as more DPS engaging? Would it only count if they were GCDs?

Short answer would be: yes.

Going slightly deeper, it largely depends on the oGCDs added. Do they interact with the rest of existing kits? Do they influence the decision I'm making before/after using it? Do they also do X, Y, or Z, instead of just damage? Do this button takes priority over other buttons? Is there any other viable way to use this button other than just "fire and forget"? How often they are utilized in comparison to other buttons? The list goes on (The list also applies to any GCDs).

I personally do not think GCDs is the only way to do it.