The Problem with Healer Feedback, and requested changes

[ForsakenRoe]

So something like the Ocean-Hued Clam set from Genshin. It's a set of artifacts--equipment basically (for anyone not familiar) that grants this passive to whomever you equip it to:

"When the character equipping this artifact set heals a character in the party, a Sea-Dyed Foam will appear for 3 seconds, accumulating the amount of HP recovered from healing (including overflow healing). At the end of the duration, the Sea-Dyed Foam will explode, dealing DMG to nearby opponents based on 90% of the accumulated healing. (This DMG is calculated similarly to Reactions such as Electro-Charged, and Superconduct, but it is not affected by Elemental Mastery, Character Levels, or Reaction DMG Bonuses). Only one Sea-Dyed Foam can be produced every 3.5 seconds. Each Sea-Dyed Foam can accumulate up to 30,000 HP (including overflow healing). There can be no more than one Sea-Dyed Foam active at any given time. This effect can still be triggered even when the character who is using this artifact set is not on the field."

In layman's terms, Your overhealing is stored for a few seconds to a maximum of 30,000, and once the duration ends, that stored value explodes, dealing damage to nearby enemies.

Something like this can potentially function in this game, but it would be tricky to balance the numbers just right. Someone would end up needing to math out the DPS relationship with this overheal attack vs just direct DPS, and it would probably need to be limited by some factor like a cooldown or a gauge resource or something.

There's a CD you can take on Druids in WOW, a 90s CD that makes the next 30s of singletarget damage also copy 20% of the damage done as healing to a nearby ally. Except for Resto Druid, the healer spec, where it works in opposite: Healing dealt is converted to damage on a nearby enemy. And because Druid's healing style is to place many many different HOTs on everyone, it results on many many chips of damage being echoed onto a nearby enemy. We could have a CD that works as simply as 'when you deal single target healing, 50% of the healing is also dealt as damage in an AOE around the heal target'. A 'totem' of sorts like that Genshin one would work too, but I'd rather see that as a whole seperate job, that has many totems with different effects

(trimmed cos it's so bloody long)

Yes, I have - because unless the damage difference between optimal and suboptimal play was trivial, they would not be able to clear higher end content unless they engaged with it. Something even some of you have said either on your own or in response to my questions. And some have either said in their opinion or in their "I even actually want that" desire, those players shouldn't be allowed to clear content - that they can currently clear in the live game - unless they change their gameplay to the new style. This is actively taking away content from people.

Again: You're saying WHM's not casting anything but Glare could still clear Savage/Extreme without weighing down their party?

It's not only the only solution that works, it's far far FAR better than yours.

I'm going to be very honest. If someone is doing the 'hardest content in the game', they are expected to know how to play their class. If their class changes and becomes 'more complex' for whatever reason, they adapt. If they're doing Savage, they have the skill to adapt to rotation changes. We do it every expansion on any non-healer, because they get new DPS skills to use. You are arguing that there is not just one, but many, enough to cause a sizeable enough dent in SE's pocket, players who are simultaneously skilled enough to be doing Savage (and at a speed that means they can't just trivialize the enrages with more gear), and somehow at the same time, are completely incapable of learning how to juggle a second DOT. That if we change all four healers to have more DPS actions in their rotation, this massive chunk of hypothetical players will have no class to play, and just quit, rather than stepping up to the challenge and improving in terms of skill. It's insane to even imply.

If someone's pushing Savage/Extreme early enough that 'not using stuff beyond Glare spam is causing party to hit enrage', they're competent enough to press buttons beyond just Glare spam. If your hypothetical player who can clear Savage but also not use a second DOT existed (pretty sure they don't), I sure as heck wouldn't play with them in Savage. If Bio AND Miasma is too much for them to handle, how can the party trust them to do Devour right? Or High Concept? I wouldn't even trust them to handle the 'braindead' P7S markers, and that's.. well, braindead, its in the name. Besides, there's a world of difference between different pieces of high end content, both in terms of timing and level. Week 1 P5S has a tighter check than week 20 because of gear difference. But even then you can afford mistakes, because it's tuned for i600, and everyone's running i610 crafted gear. Week 5 P8S is harder check than week 5 P6S, because it's a later fight in the tier. So, again, if the hypothetical player runs into a situation where they can't just Glarespam their way through, they have choices, learn how to play their class properly (shock and horror) or wait till gear lets them bruteforce their way through. And again, if they are at ie, week 3 P8S, they're already competent enough to execute more complex rotations, even as a healer. I don't see why 'the player should be allowed to Glarespam to victory in content, and if they cannot, the content is what should change, not the players approach'. We already have issues with how steep the learning curve goes from story content>Extremes>Savage

Lastly, please remove your head from your backside before you suffocate, dying IRL would negatively affect your HPS output. You're almost sounding like FireMage with that last line

[ty_taurus]

There's a CD you can take on Druids in WOW, a 90s CD that makes the next 30s of singletarget damage also copy 20% of the damage done as healing to a nearby ally. Except for Resto Druid, the healer spec, where it works in opposite: Healing dealt is converted to damage on a nearby enemy. And because Druid's healing style is to place many many different HOTs on everyone, it results on many many chips of damage being echoed onto a nearby enemy. We could have a CD that works as simply as 'when you deal single target healing, 50% of the healing is also dealt as damage in an AOE around the heal target'. A 'totem' of sorts like that Genshin one would work too, but I'd rather see that as a whole seperate job, that has many totems with different effects

FFXIV would probably prefer something more with a defined max output where the effect stops after a certain amount of potency is reached. The game isn't balanced with heal potency values being converted to damage, having something like the genshin example where the total damage caps a certain potency would be the easiest way to balance that. Imagine Zoe Pneuma with that effect... With the Genshin example, though, it's more of an aura effect. In game it's a bubble that appears over your shoulder, follows you, and pops around you.

But you could ultimately hybridize the concepts to some level.

[ty_taurus]

FFXIV would probably prefer something more with a defined max output where the effect stops after a certain amount of potency is reached. The game isn't balanced with heal potency values being converted to damage, having something like the genshin example where the total damage caps a certain potency would be the easiest way to balance that. Imagine Zoe Pneuma with that effect... With the Genshin example, though, it's more of an aura effect. In game it's a bubble that appears over your shoulder, follows you, and pops around you.

But you could ultimately hybridize the concepts to some level.

To add something to this last statement...

I did mention something tangential to this concept actually with some of my WHM headspace ideas. Fleeting Familiar in FFVII Remake is an ability for Aerith that summons a butterfly that circles around her and automatically pelts enemies with chip damage. It's not very great in that game, but one idea I had of adopting that concept was essentially give you stacks that cause this aura effect to hit the nearest enemy to you for small pieces of damage, and once all the stacks are consumed, you nourish the blood lily.

Stacks would be triggered from any spell, whether those be DPS spells or healing spells, and the blood lily nourishment at the end gives it some interconnectivity within your own kit. In a similar vein, you could steal that structure and use it for something more focused on healing. Or you could even make a job that revolves around it. Healing fills your gauge, and when it's full, gives you a few different, more powerful offensive spells to pay for with that overhealing generation, though that could get quite finnicky to balance correctly.

[ForsakenRoe]

FFXIV would probably prefer something more with a defined max output where the effect stops after a certain amount of potency is reached. The game isn't balanced with heal potency values being converted to damage, having something like the genshin example where the total damage caps a certain potency would be the easiest way to balance that. Imagine Zoe Pneuma with that effect... With the Genshin example, though, it's more of an aura effect. In game it's a bubble that appears over your shoulder, follows you, and pops around you.

But you could ultimately hybridize the concepts to some level.

I did say 'single target healing', AOE stuff like Medica, Lilybell, Assize or Asylum would not be counted. Solace, Cure2, Cure1, Tetra and Bene would be the only things that'd work, maybe Cure3 but only the primary target. And Bene could probably be an exception so it's not just thrown in for damage. I picture it less as a 'do more damage' CD and more like... damage recapture? So if you foresee a part where you have to heal a lot (Brute Justice JWaves or something) with GCDs, you can pop this and get, not Glare level damage per GCD, but at least more than the 0 we currently would have.

We even saw this recently applied to healers in PVP (I realize PVP is different, but bear with me). Those people who were used to being dedicated healers in FFXIV either adapted to very different support jobs in the present PVP design, or they likely re-rolled or stopped PVPing. They couldn't continue in the old way of PVPing, all healers were changed.

Imagine if one of the healers (probably WHM if some people here got their way) in PVP didn't do any damage to enemies, it was all about keeping your team alive with healing. It'd be horrible to play against, and horrible to play AS, since you'd be target number one to get absolutely disintegrated, CCd out of the game and blown up before you can say 'Why didn't Guard save me'. And it'd mean less burst potential on your team, since you're essentially 4v5 in terms of damage output. The more I think about it the more I hate it why do I do this to myself

[ty_taurus]

I did say 'single target healing', AOE stuff like Medica, Lilybell, Assize or Asylum would not be counted. Solace, Cure2, Cure1, Tetra and Bene would be the only things that'd work, maybe Cure3 but only the primary target. And Bene could probably be an exception so it's not just thrown in for damage. I picture it less as a 'do more damage' CD and more like... damage recapture? So if you foresee a part where you have to heal a lot (Brute Justice JWaves or something) with GCDs, you can pop this and get, not Glare level damage per GCD, but at least more than the 0 we currently would have.

The problem I have here is it's not unlike what ShB lilies were, which effectively means it's a system meant to be avoided as much as possible rather than something to look forward to. As a general rule of thumb, I think it's far more satisfying to make healing optimization more about generating resources necessary to access DPS neutral healing, and the concept regarding healing into damage conversion is more about creating a moment where you want to store healing to gain a burst in DPS.

It's not that partial refund systems have no value, because they do, but the vast majority of the game doesn't really support it, and it doesn't feel good to resort to. I don't want to keep adding tools that are niche in hard content and basically unusable everywhere else. We need more stuff that's consistently usable across all content.

[ForsakenRoe]

Right now, they know how to play their class and are able to clear content and enjoy doing so.
You wish to change their class so they no longer know their class and can no longer clear content unless they also abandon the gameplay they prefer for one you prefer.

Again, SE adds new skills in expansion, this 'changes their class so they no longer know their class and can no longer clear content', unless they learn the new rotations. Which they do. This applies to everyone except healers, because apparently we can only handle 'new skill' if it is a direct trait upgrade of the old one. If DPS can adapt to rotation changes, Tanks can adapt to rotation changes, Healers can adapt too.

Pick pretty much any game from... ever. In the vast majority, if someone is not good enough to get past something, a boss fight or hard platforming section or whatever, they can either improve or give up. Crash Bandicoot games don't fill in the bottomless pits if you die to them 3 times, until the whole level is idiotproofed. Elden Ring doesn't reduce damage over and over until bosses do chip damage to you. You either get better stats, get better at the game, or play something else more your skill level. Or in a few cases, you just get indirectly mocked for it, like 'you have unlocked easy mode' in DMC3. And yeh, the 'skill level asked of player' in FFXIV has dropped over the years, and maybe some people got used to that, or don't know anything else. That's a bad thing. We saw this tier, when the healing required was 'a bit higher than usual', people couldn't handle it. Because they're so used to training wheels mode healing, they can't handle it when the game rolls it's sleeves up.

I saw people suggest that they should jack the healing required up so more constant healing is needed. That's how we fix healers, to make them more engaging, make them heal more! Setting aside the fact that this has been shown, by this tier, to be a very controversial and probably role-killing decision, it would also either necessitate reworking 10 years of old content that doesn't fit that model, or just leaving it to rot. Having it as 5 Expansions of old style healing, where players learn that healing moments are few and far between, and DPS time is plentiful, then going into eg: 8.0 story and BAM suddenly everyone's dying around them because 'we're in sustained healing time now, rev up those medicas', what's the point of what they learned in the old content?

I've seen videos and tweets of people with physical disabilities, overcoming those disabilities, clearing Savages and even Ultimates. So if THEY are determined enough to IRL Limit Break and achieve these levels of proficiency, I don't get why FFXIV should have this 'nodding bird' mode where players can just 1111111111111 their way through 'challenge content' like Savage.

I've seen some people say they purposely die in solo instances, so they can select Very Easy mode and obliterate it without challenge. They're within their rights to, but like... Damn, they should just go watch a movie, if they don't want gameplay with their game

The problem I have here is it's not unlike what ShB lilies were, which effectively means it's a system meant to be avoided as much as possible rather than something to look forward to. As a general rule of thumb, I think it's far more satisfying to make healing optimization more about generating resources necessary to access DPS neutral healing, and the concept regarding healing into damage conversion is more about creating a moment where you want to store healing to gain a burst in DPS.

It's not that partial refund systems have no value, because they do, but the vast majority of the game doesn't really support it, and it doesn't feel good to resort to. I don't want to keep adding tools that are niche in hard content and basically unusable everywhere else. We need more stuff that's consistently usable across all content.

If some players got their way, it'd see use in all content, cos apparently they want more HPS required in all content. Which, y'know, this tier showed is a very bad idea. I'd love to see an April Fools version of the game where Sastasha's last boss slapped like the Living Liquid in TEA though. I could keep up with it sure, but the majority would get rolled out like pizza dough, which is why I don't advocate for that solution

First off, no. You aren't also looking out for us at the same time. Any and all WHM's who want depth in their class are being told to "go play another class". That is not fair when they can also be given extra dps buttons with 0 issue.

Second, "you wish to change their class so they no longer how to play and can no longer clear content"? What do you think happens when we go from one expansion to the next? We got new skills added. Over the course of the expansion they'll learn. It isn't like we're asking for this in a midpatch. I had to relearn the seals system and how to use Exaltation, Macrocomos and the stupidness that is the area of Earthly Star.

Are you telling me that if in 7.0 WHM's get Aero 3 and another dps button people can't learn how to use that too? Cause that's what that line is reading as.

Also, SAM literally had Kaiten removed and were forced to learn their class. It didn't stop people from adapting even if they didn't like it. It won't stop people from learning WHM if they want to.

That AST point is super relevant. Going from 4.0 to 5.0, we had to forget all of the effects like +Damage, +Crit, +Defense, and instead relearn the effects completely, as 'Lunar seal, Ranged', 'Lunar Seal, Melee', 'Solar Seal, Ranged', etc. And we did. If we could handle learning those effects changing, we can handle an extra GCD or two in our filler.

[ASkellington]

I've seen some people say they purposely die in solo instances, so they can select Very Easy mode and obliterate it without challenge. They're within their rights to, but like... Damn, they should just go watch a movie, if they don't want gameplay with their game

Off topic but I hate solo duties. Every and all of them. I don't find them fun; I don't find them engaging. Are they hard? No. But if I could skip them would I? Yes. This isn't the gameplay I signed up for. Especially with how healers are currently built, and how it took SE for friggin ever to allow us to change the keybindings (too little too late).

Doubly so because I have alts. It wasn't fun the first go round. It's not fun the second.

[Renathras]

Again, SE adds new skills in expansion,

And as I just replied to ASk, adding a skill is not the same as a complete Job rework. And the complete Job reworks they've done thus far have always made Jobs simplier (MCH, SMN come to mind), not more complex. Even new MNK is an edge case that had some of its complexity removed, and it wasn't an entire role even if you DO want to argue it became more complex, it was just one Job in a role.

unless they learn the new rotations. Which they do. This applies to everyone except healers,

How did PLD's rotation change from ShB to EW? "Oh, I press 1 button 4 times now instead of 1 (Confetti)." What about GNB? "I now press one other big hit button once every 1 minute in my burst window and a oGCD after another button I only use as a resource dump." What about RDM? "Now my finisher works in AOE and for single target, I press the last button of my combo a second time."

Which of these Jobs, "everyone except healers", had to learn a new rotation? With healers, you could say I learned a new rotation, too. WHM has Misery now being damage neutral and Lilies generate in 20 sec instead of 30 sec, so you press Misery more! Look at that, that's a change!

...that's not what you guys are proposing, though.

Pick pretty much any game from... ever. In the vast majority, if someone is not good enough to get past something,

Except they are good enough to do so now.

Imagine if in a Mario game, a player could beat Boswer. But then you "improved" the game where they could only beat Bowser if they did a very specific set of jumps that they never had to do before to beat Bowser. You've now made them "not good enough" at something they were entirely "good enough" to do before.

I saw people suggest that they should jack the healing required up so more constant healing is needed. That's how we fix healers, to make them more engaging, make them heal more!

Well, yes.

It also appeals more to people that play healers because they like healing, and to people who don't have a mindset of muscle memory damage rotations.

It's been shown to be "very controversial" because the raid community has gotten used to not using GCDs for healing as they chases parses.

it would also either necessitate reworking 10 years of old content that doesn't fit that model, or just leaving it to rot.

That's what they've done with everything so far. They didn't rework Alexander because healers have more oGCDs now than they did in HW.

Having it as 5 Expansions of old style healing,

Considering ARR and HW aren't the same style of healing as SB, which itself is distinct from ShB and EW, it's at most 2 expansions of "old healing". And they literally did this same thing going from SB to ShB. So it's not like this is a change in any way.

then going into eg: 8.0 story and BAM suddenly everyone's dying around them because 'we're in sustained healing time now, rev up those medicas',

As you're so fond of pointing out - the story and normal content wouldn't require it. Not to mention casting Medica isn't exactly hard for people to adapt to.

what's the point of what they learned in the old content?

The story.

What's the point now?

What did people learn from Prae runs from 3.0-6.0? What do people learn from Sasthasha runs? What are people learning from Sirensong Sea runs?

That AST point is super relevant.

Wait, what?

AST got easier in 5.0. o.O

Like...seriously, the chard effect was just "is it purple" or "is it teal", and the seals you can visibly see on the card. "try to get three" wasn't complicated or more challenging than what was before.

And if AST wants an extra GCD or two in your filler, more power to you. I'm literally arguing that they get that! \o/

EDIT:

It undermines your point pretty bad

(...except it doesn't at all...)

'yeh but they got this and it didn't require relearning' skills are all not-damage except Misery,

It undermines my point that making things simpler is the opposite of making things more complex?

Now look at another role, tanks. Blade combo on PLD forced people to unlearn the muscle memory of going for a Goring Blade after their Confiteor,

...by replacing remembering a 1-2-4 with pressing their 7 button 4 times instead of once. Is that what you're arguing for? "WHM now automatically casts Misery with the Glare button once you get 3 Lilies" would be the equivalent change. Is that what you want? Less complexity?

DoubleDown changed how GNB's build/spend ratio works out,

No it didn't. Played GNB in ShB, play GNB in EW. Instead of 1x Gnashing Fang + 2x Burst Strike, you Double Down + 1x Gnashing Fang, and in both cases you use Gnashing Fang on CD to prevent drift and every 2 mins get extra Burst Strike on the end due to Bloodfest. That's hardly a big change and doesn't change the flow or rotation. It's kind of just an extra busywork button that they could have simply made Sonic Break into and no one would have batted an eye. Also would have helped the Devs with their quest to get rid of DoTs.

I've heard there's about 3s of leeway with downtime before you fall behind and don't generate enough carts to keep the loop going.

GNB is super easy to me because you just lock in the rotation and go. Everything comes off CD at either 30 sec or 60 sec, which is the same it was in ShB. The rotation plays more or less the same, too. Also, there's technically an alternative if you need an extra stack with fewer GCDs just before your burst. AOE combo builds in 1-2 instead of 1-2-3. There are niche cases for this, but it's generally not worth bothering. The solution to that is you remove a Burst Strike when you have that case come up so you have an extra charge.

WAR keeps getting harder and harder to screw up and people are very vocal about it in other threads.

...and yet, it's the most played Tank in every region that isn't Japan. And the one people recommend for new Tanks, alt-Job Tanks (people that play other roles but want to branch out or be an omni filler), etc.

And no you can't go 'yeh but tanks are meant to do some damage to keep threat'.

Except they literally are. There's no way to maintain threat in the current game without pressing a damage ability.

Replace 'deals X potency damage' with 'generates emnity equal to an attack with X potency damage' and it'd still keep aggro just fine, but without doing damage.

Sure. Talk to the Devs and I'm sure they'll get right on making that change for you... /sarcasm
(except they might...)

[ForsakenRoe]

And as I just replied to ASk, adding a skill is not the same as a complete Job rework. And the complete Job reworks they've done thus far have always made Jobs simplier (MCH, SMN come to mind), not more complex. Even new MNK is an edge case that had some of its complexity removed, and it wasn't an entire role even if you DO want to argue it became more complex, it was just one Job in a role.

Yeh, I'm so glad that we can tell the SMNs 'dont worry, I know your class got lobotomized in complexity, but it's okay, because BLM still has complexity!', I'm sure they really appreciate it

How did PLD's rotation change from ShB to EW? "Oh, I press 1 button 4 times now instead of 1 (Confetti)." What about GNB? "I now press one other big hit button once every 1 minute in my burst window and a oGCD after another button I only use as a resource dump." What about RDM? "Now my finisher works in AOE and for single target, I press the last button of my combo a second time."

Which of these Jobs, "everyone except healers", had to learn a new rotation?

All of them? If you had to do something, anything, different compared to SHB, that's 'a different rotation'. Even if it's just 'press this button three extra times' in the case of PLD, how many times did people overwrite their Valor DOT? How many people forgot how many Holy Spirits they were spending and screwed themselves out of a Confiteor in SHB?

Except they are good enough to do so now.

Then they'd be able to learn how to press extra buttons. Or if their skill level is such that they clear in like week 12 because of gear difference, they can continue to ignore extra buttons and bruteforce with gear difference, just like now.

Imagine if in a Mario game, a player could beat Boswer. But then you "improved" the game where they could only beat Bowser if they did a very specific set of jumps that they never had to do before to beat Bowser. You've now made them "not good enough" at something they were entirely "good enough" to do before.

Imagine Super Mario Galaxy. Normal Mode is Mario, and Savage is Luigi mode, with his slippery inertia when slowing after releasing the controlstick, faster run speed and higher jump height (meaning potentially overshooting). So yeh, this kinda thing already happened in Mario. Someone who can beat Bowser on Mario Mode might not be able to as Luigi, because he's more unwieldly to control. I struggled on the ice levels as him a bit because of his slippy ground traction combo'd with 'no traction on ice'. So instead of complaining that the game should just give me the reward, I learned Luigi's differences and got good enough to complete his mode too.

It also appeals more to people that play healers because they like healing, and to people who don't have a mindset of muscle memory damage rotations.

How are people knowing when to refresh Dia now? By looking at the duration remaining on the debuff on the boss. So what's stopping them from looking at a second DOT timer, right next to the first one, in the same location on their screen? I don't like muscle memory damage rotations. Healer rotation in SB was not 'muscle memory damage rotation', I wasn't refreshing my DOTs because I could feel in my bones 'ah yes i have done 7 Broils, after this next one 20 seconds will have passed which means I must refresh my DOT', I refreshed them cos I saw the number under the icon said 1.

It's been shown to be "very controversial" because the raid community has gotten used to not using GCDs for healing as they chases parses.

It's been shown to be controversial because a lot of the raid community has gotten used to not using GCDs for healing because they haven't been needed for so long. Parses have nothing to do with this, competent healer players know when GCDs need to be used, and have no objections to using safety GCD healing in prog/going for a clear.

As you're so fond of pointing out - the story and normal content wouldn't require it. Not to mention casting Medica isn't exactly hard for people to adapt to.

Then we have the Abyssos problem: People would not be prepared for what is actually expected from them, because nothing up til that point has asked it of them. Then when it's suddenly demanded, they assume it's an outlier rather than the new expectation of them, because everything before that didn't ask that of them. In order for the 'more healing required' design to properly work, every piece of story content would need to force the player to heal, to get them used to that. Which would mean story dungeons being an actual threat, which is not necessarily disagreeable to me, but it would be to a lot of the Limsa AFK crew.

The story.
What's the point now?
What did people learn from Prae runs from 3.0-6.0? What do people learn from Sasthasha runs? What are people learning from Sirensong Sea runs?

Depends how big the tank pulls. But Sastasha is a terrible example, as a SCH can literally AFK it, the fairy handles everything at that level. What people learn in most story dungeons is how much damage mobs do, or don't do more accurately. If the change was implemented to force more healing throughput out of players, they'd learn that THAT is the amount of damage mobs do, and therefore how much healing is expected of them.

Wait, what?
AST got easier in 5.0. o.O
Like...seriously, the chard effect was just "is it purple" or "is it teal", and the seals you can visibly see on the card. "try to get three" wasn't complicated or more challenging than what was before.
And if AST wants an extra GCD or two in your filler, more power to you. I'm literally arguing that they get that! \o/

The question isn't if it was easier or harder, the question is 'did things have to be relearned'. And with AST, the whole Card system had to be. You remember old cards right? How they had pairs for their RR effects? Arrow was paired with Spear as 'Double duration'. Now Arrow is paired with Ewer. That new pairing would require relearning. And yeh, you could look at the job gauge to work out the card's effect/seal granted. But, for people like me, who learned to differentiate which card we got by seeing + The Balance in the 'Buffs received' flying text back in HW, 'look at the job gauge' would require... relearning.

And of all the healers to get filler GCDs, I'd actually argue for AST to be last in line for it. It'd still get complexity, but not on it's filler GCDs. The reason it had the more basic of rotations back in older expansions was because it had to, to give breathing room for the Card system. So I'd focus more on the card system to differentiate it. If we gave all of the healers a new filler GCD and a second DOT, they're all just gonna feel samey again. So make WHM bursty, SCH DOTy, AST even more buff gameplay, SGE an actual damage-to-healing healer.

...and yet, it's the most played Tank in every region that isn't Japan. And the one people recommend for new Tanks, alt-Job Tanks (people that play other roles but want to branch out or be an omni filler), etc.

Except they literally are. There's no way to maintain threat in the current game without pressing a damage ability.

Sure. Talk to the Devs and I'm sure they'll get right on making that change for you... /sarcasm
(except they might...)

Cut the rest because it's obvious you're missing the point. Whether on purpose or by sheer obliviousness, who knows. But this last bit, where you put /sarcasm. Did I really have to put /s to tell you that, no actually I don't want them to remove all damage from tanks? That it was just an example of a way they COULD make tanks functional, without them having to do damage, thereby allowing the Trinity fetishists to get their rocks off that 'only DPS need to do DPS!'

And yeh, people recommend WAR for new players. If it's hard to screw up, why would you not recommend that one to a new player? The problem isn't that it's hard to screw up, the problem is that even at high end optimization, it's hard to screw up. Having ways to screw up makes it feel rewarding when you don't screw up.

Except they literally are. There's no way to maintain threat in the current game without pressing a damage ability.

With the multiplier on tankstance, the flat threat bonus on Provoke, and Shirk, two tanks in an 8man trial might actually be able to keep threat on the boss by just doing the 'circleshirk'. Maybe I should try testing it tomorrow.

[Renathras]

When someone language starts incorporating language like change "screwing over a job",

Are you replying to me?

You realize I was replying to someone else - a proponent of change - using that wording, right? That is, the person wanting the change was using the "screwing over a job" language. I merely adopted the language they were using to further the discussion. If you're going to attack me over someone else's word choice, maybe you should be attacking them over their word choice first?

I start to think that now we are getting closer to one of the intrinsic reasons or even unconscious reasons that is the basis for their resistance to change.

What part of "Change 75% of the current paradigm" is "resistance to change", exactly?

Even the hint of change and the possibility that some people won't be able to adapt in the highest levels of content is simply not acceptable to them.

No, what's unacceptable to me is taking something away from some people just to make you people happy. It's incredibly selfish to think that changes should only suit you and those who are like you, no matter if they harm others or how much they harm others and their enjoyment.

We even saw this recently applied to healers in PVP (I realize PVP is different, but bear with me). Those people who were used to being dedicated healers in FFXIV either adapted to very different support jobs in the present PVP design, or they likely re-rolled or stopped PVPing. They couldn't continue in the old way of PVPing, all healers were changed.

Actually, this is proof of the value of my proposal:

WHM in PvP plays a lot like it did before. While SGE was significantly changed (doesn't even have a remotely spamable heal), WHM can be played more or less the same as it always has been. You just get more kills now when you pop LB at the right times than you did before when your LB was just a heal. WHM LB is still a heal (and damage reduction) now.

SCH and AST were made into more support healers as well.

WHM play in PvP has the same general number of DPS abilities as PvE. Glarespam, Misery, Seraph, and Purgation in place of Glare, Misery, Dia, and Assize. Even similar CDs/use timers.

The PvP healer change is a "proof of concept" for why my idea is a good one and can work.

I think the lessons to learn from the PvP changes are that not every Job needs to really change much, and that shorter but more frequent and more impactful special abilities are more fun than scripted, longer CD ones. EDIT: Oh, and that not every Job in a role must play at all the same!:ENDEDIT

I'm going to be very honest.

Ultimates are the hardest in the game. Not Savage. Not Extreme.

And, this is also irrelevant: People have access to content now. The answer to the question "Would you be taking away content from them they currently enjoy?" would be "Yes. You would be." You can DEFEND that, but it makes your solution worse from a community and game design perspective of an active MMO. People get far angrier when you take things away from them than they do if you leave them alone or even if you add new things that they can't do.

If someone is doing the 'hardest content in the game', they are expected to know how to play their class.

And right now, they do.

Full stop.

Right now, they know how to play their class and are able to clear content and enjoy doing so.

You wish to change their class so they no longer know their class and can no longer clear content unless they also abandon the gameplay they prefer for one you prefer.

What you don't get here is I'm the one trying to look out for the little guy while also looking out for you guys at the same time. It's why my solution is the good one, because it does give everyone some avenues to play healer where they can enjoy it and the content they clear just as they are clearing today.

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That said, I do agree with you on the learning curve between content needing to be smoothed a bit.

Lastly, please remove your head from your backside before you suffocate,

I'm not going to because I'm not an arse...but you realize this is probably a reportable insult, right?

Also, here's the part where I could say "Same to you, yours is farther up there."

EDIT:

Imagine if one of the healers (probably WHM if some people here got their way) in PVP didn't do any damage to enemies, it was all about keeping your team alive with healing. It'd be horrible to play against, and horrible to play AS, since you'd be target number one to get absolutely disintegrated, CCd out of the game and blown up before you can say 'Why didn't Guard save me'. And it'd mean less burst potential on your team, since you're essentially 4v5 in terms of damage output. The more I think about it the more I hate it why do I do this to myself

Who - literally who - in this thread is arguing for PvE WHMs to only heal allies and do no damage to enemies? (Or PvP ones, for that matter?)

Who has made that proposal? Who has made that argument?

Also, all those things you say would happen...already happen. CC chains against healers to delete them are already a thing. And Guard doesn't work for bupkis.

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Oh, super random aside, Roe, I wanted to ask you:

Did you play SCH in SB?

Not trying to prove a point, just curious if you did and really enjoyed it.