The Problem with Healer Feedback, and requested changes

[ty_taurus]

I was thinking of a round about way of "fixing" healers and what of inventing mechanics, enemies, buffs, that convert healing into also damage...that way healing would seen more to be worth it when it isn't and it would be in a step in the right direction. Think how good is would feel that healing affected undead...

So something like the Ocean-Hued Clam set from Genshin. It's a set of artifacts--equipment basically (for anyone not familiar) that grants this passive to whomever you equip it to:

"When the character equipping this artifact set heals a character in the party, a Sea-Dyed Foam will appear for 3 seconds, accumulating the amount of HP recovered from healing (including overflow healing). At the end of the duration, the Sea-Dyed Foam will explode, dealing DMG to nearby opponents based on 90% of the accumulated healing. (This DMG is calculated similarly to Reactions such as Electro-Charged, and Superconduct, but it is not affected by Elemental Mastery, Character Levels, or Reaction DMG Bonuses). Only one Sea-Dyed Foam can be produced every 3.5 seconds. Each Sea-Dyed Foam can accumulate up to 30,000 HP (including overflow healing). There can be no more than one Sea-Dyed Foam active at any given time. This effect can still be triggered even when the character who is using this artifact set is not on the field."

In layman's terms, Your overhealing is stored for a few seconds to a maximum of 30,000, and once the duration ends, that stored value explodes, dealing damage to nearby enemies.

Something like this can potentially function in this game, but it would be tricky to balance the numbers just right. Someone would end up needing to math out the DPS relationship with this overheal attack vs just direct DPS, and it would probably need to be limited by some factor like a cooldown or a gauge resource or something.

[IDontPetLalas]

I think the problem is, "this affects those players who are interested in optimizing their gameplay" tends to ALSO affect those players who are not. The only way to do it is to make the gap trivial OR make it entirely unnecessary (e.g. such lax Enrages that no one cares about healers doing damage or not). As no one is arguing for either of those changes, there's no way to do this that won't affect those other people.

The only solution - absent that - which I can see would be to make one healer not require it. Then players on that healer simply don't have to worry about it, and no one will be blackballing them since they'll be doing the same general overall performance as the people who are pushing optimization playing the other Jobs.

Can you show me a case where this isn't so? Where the optimized difference is not trivial/unneeded AND people that don't want to optimize can play those Jobs in the same content (this includes Savage) and get the clears they can get in live right now AND where the community won't be blackballing them for not doing the optimal damage?



In order - no it does not. There are already healers who don't care about optimizing their gameplay in normal content. They may get kicked, however they cannot get harassed without the threat of violation- I am not promoting this, I am simply rehashing what has already been discussed. If all they want to do is hit their dot and maintain it at 20% uptime, no worries. If we add 2 DPS skills, 2 more support skills, whatever- they can ignore it if they want- they don't use them now. There is no enrage - aside from the occasional soft enrage.
So then we get to your statement that refers to Savage content, To be honest, that is quite convoluted. I will only add my own opinion, which is at that level of content, I consider it quite fair that ever is expect to be able to perform at a higher level and in the case of healers and the current encounter designs, that means a certain level of DPS is expected and normal. That is no different from any other job.

[Renathras]

In order - no it does not.

I did say "tends to" not "always does".

There are already healers who don't care about optimizing their gameplay in normal content.

Where did I mention "normal content"? I'm talking about Savage and Extremes. It quite frankly doesn't matter in the rest of the game, so that isn't even part of the discussion.

If all they want to do is hit their dot and maintain it at 20% uptime, no worries. If we add 2 DPS skills, 2 more support skills, whatever- they can ignore it if they want- they don't use them now. There is no enrage - aside from the occasional soft enrage.

In Savages and Extremes? I'm unaware of any current Savage or Extreme that doesn't have an Enrage.

So then we get to your statement that refers to Savage content,

...my entire statement was about Savage content. But whatever, let's do that...

I will only add my own opinion, which is at that level of content, I consider it quite fair that ever is expect to be able to perform at a higher level and in the case of healers and the current encounter designs, that means a certain level of DPS is expected and normal. That is no different from any other job.

Okay, here's the problem with this:

In the game as it is currently live, players are able to clear this content with this level of gameplay. That is a current thing. I think you realize what I'm saying here and how it's a problem for your argument, but let's remove the minced words and get to the crux of it:

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If we do what you want, players will lose access to content they currently have access to with their current preferred gameplay.

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We can beat around the busy, people can argue that they SHOULD lose access, etc. But I think a fair discussion starts with acknowledging the basic facts: People WILL lose access to content they can CURRENTLY access. Their gameplay will be truncated unless they change to playing a way they do not currently enjoy. This is a loss. In other words, such a change would not be a net gain for everyone, and there would be a lot of people losing out in exchange for some other people to derive more enjoyment (at their expense, ultimately) and be more engaged.

This is what my solution solves that yours does not.

It prevents people from losing out of content they currently have access to. It may require them to change Jobs, but they still have access to content.

...and before you say "Yeah, but changing Jobs is also losing out!"; we're contrasting this with the proposal of changing all the healer Jobs, in which case they lose out anyway, so they're no better off under your proposal. At least under mine, they get to keep SOMETHING.

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EDIT:

Ever watch Fullmetal Alchemist?

"To obtain, something of equal value must be lost..."

But that's the concept of a zero-sum game. For there to be an addition somewhere, the equation must be balanced by subtracting somewhere else.

The thing is, life isn't only zero-sum games. There are situations where everyone can win, or where everyone can get something. "Paredo improving trades" is a term in economics for exchanges where everyone is, on net, better off than they were before, even while they are giving up something. That is, on the whole, the community is better off, but ALSO every individual is better off, or at least no WORSE off than they were before. This is also the nature of compromise.

Changing all the healers is a zero-sum model. Some people benefit, but at the expense of everyone who does not.

Changing SOME but not all of the healers is not a zero-sum model. Some people benefit more than others, but everyone is at least no worse off than they were before.

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TL;DR:

Your solution is a zero-sum solution that has winner and losers, where you pick the winners. You can be for it because you're not losing out. It's like people supporting tax raises on...people who aren't them. You would be happier under the model, but you aren't bearing the costs of it.

My solution is not zero-sum. Everyone loses out a little (people who want change have one healer that they don't enjoy, people who don't want the change have 3(4) healers they don't enjoy), but on net, the whole of the people are increased (which you can argue yours is, but that isn't clear like it is for mine), but ALSO, of the people who are not the big winners, individually they still aren't losing out entirely, and they aren't losing as much as they are under your solution.

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This is the reason I think my solution is better. The worst off people are still able to access everything they can today. They aren't losing out, even though they may be more limited. And this is the important thing. People can often accept not being better off than they were before. People do not take it well if you tell them they now can't do things they could do before.

[Shurrikhan]

The position proposed by you guys actively strips some players of gameplay they are allowed to engage in today, and thus is taking away from Paul to make Peter happier at the expense of robbing Paul of the things he's doing today that make him happy.

???? No. Not even close.

You're making the case that every WHM player [or those of whichever other job you'd chose to sacrifice] wants to have access only to the shallowest of kits and that --despite their being able to use as much or as little of a kit as they like-- they'd be somehow so perturbed by even seeing anything more than the barebone basics we have now that they'd lose out.

But you've provided no evidence for any of those claims or their underlying warrants.

You've provided no rationale as to why players would be unable to simply choose how much of a given kit to engage with and ignore what they don't.

You've provided no rationale as to why having a kit larger than one wishes to engage with significantly worsens a user's experience.

You've provided no evidence that most WHM players like being 'just basic' and that keeping the job low-ceiling would therefore be preferable over giving them more to work with if they so desire.

You've provided no evidence that people pick jobs for specifically being simple or having low ceiling (which is just a lack of anything more) over their vibe, flow, features, and/or aesthetics (which is the only way you'd be favoring the total healer population as a whole by screwing over WHMs [or whichever other job you'd choose to sacrifice]).

You are the one saying Job X must be shallowed out so some hypothetical player -can better pretend they're not spending less effort for the same result --sacrificing the one for a hypothetical sub-group, as opposed than even than many-- rather than their being able to do more instead doing only so much as is (A) needed in what content they're comfortable with and therein (B) comfortable for them.

You're asking to kneecap Paul specifically so others can use him as a disabilities role model, rather than just letting Paul choose not to run when it's neither necessary nor desirable.

The only solution - absent that - which I can see would be to make one healer not require it. Then players on that healer simply don't have to worry about it, and no one will be blackballing them since they'll be doing the same general overall performance as the people who are pushing optimization playing the other Jobs.

If, as you say...

the optimized difference is not trivial/unneeded

...then what would it possibly matter than WHM isn't likewise so trivial in its kit? Why does it have to be neutered if using a greater extent of its available tools, nuances, optimizations, etc., is unneeded?

It's not the "only solution." It's not even a solution whatsoever.

[Renathras]

???? No. Not even close.

Yes, yes even close. In fact, so close it's exactly true.

You're making the case that every WHM player [or those of whichever other job you'd chose to sacrifice] wants to have access only to the shallowest of kits and that

No I'm not, and have never in fact once made that case.

--despite their being able to use as much or as little of a kit as they like--

And still clear Savage?

But you've provided no evidence for any of those claims or their underlying warrants.

Why would I provide evidence for claims I have not made?

You've provided no rationale as to why players would be unable to simply choose how much of a given kit to engage with and ignore what they don't.

Yes, I have - because unless the damage difference between optimal and suboptimal play was trivial, they would not be able to clear higher end content unless they engaged with it. Something even some of you have said either on your own or in response to my questions. And some have either said in their opinion or in their "I even actually want that" desire, those players shouldn't be allowed to clear content - that they can currently clear in the live game - unless they change their gameplay to the new style. This is actively taking away content from people.

You've provided no rationale as to why having a kit larger than one wishes to engage with significantly worsens a user's experience.

Yes, I have - because not engaging in it removes their viability in content they can currently engage with, clear, and enjoy.

You've provided no evidence that most WHM players like being 'just basic' and that keeping the job low-ceiling would therefore be preferable over giving them more to work with if they so desire.

I've never made that claim. Again, why would I provide evidence for claims I have not made?

You've provided no evidence that people pick jobs for specifically being simple or having low ceiling

Again, why would I provide evidence for claims I have not made?

That said, I have in past discussions provided this evidence, and could again. Lucky Bancho numbers show that across all roles (not just healer) the most played Jobs in the game are the ones with the simplest rotations. While we would need more studies to absolutely prove it, this has been true over multiple Lucky Bancho censuses, to the point the general community analysis of those data agrees that it is highly likely players often do, in fact, pick Jobs based on ease of play and simplicity. This is especially true for alt-Jobs, but seems to bee true on the whole.

Not "always do". "often do"

over their vibe, flow, features, and/or aesthetics

I've never made this argument, either. Again, why would I provide evidence for claims I have not made?

In fact, I've explicitly acknowledged that some people would be upset having to change Jobs and have to ask themselves which is more important, aesthetic or gameplay they enjoy. But this is still better than your solution of changing all healers which means people that don't like your gameplay GET NOTHING and have to quit the game.

(which is the only way you'd be favoring the total healer population as a whole by screwing over WHMs [or whichever other job you'd choose to sacrifice]).

Again, this is an argument I've never made.

At no time have I argued to "screw over" WHM's or other Jobs. To my way of thinking, changing the Jobs is screwing them over. To my way of thinking, making 3(4) Jobs more complicated for you would be screwing over current SCH, dAST/nAST, and SGE players because many of us don't find you're preferred gameplay fun. All of us would be screwed and have to swap to WHM. If anything, my proposal is screwing over people by sacrificing SCH, AST, and SGE to you. From my perspective, the Jobs made more complex are the ones being sacrificed and screwed over.

...and my proposal is even willing to do that in order to make you happy. This seems to be something you're not getting.

To those who do not share your view, it's changing the healers to be more complex that is breaking them, screwing them, and sacrificing them. WHM, to us, would be the only healer NOT being sacrificed and screwed over. That is what you aren't understanding.

It would be a sacrifice - I'd be sacrificing SGE, AST, and SGE - just so you can have more fun. The only thing is, it means that at least people who don't enjoy your type of gameplay can still enjoy the content they're doing right now without losing out on it entirely.

...then what would it possibly matter than WHM isn't likewise so trivial in its kit? Why does it have to be neutered

It's not being neutered. Read above. It'd be the only not NOT being neutered. We'd be neutering SCH, AST, and SGE by making them needlessly complex so that you can have more fun. WHM would be the only true healer left for those that don't like your gameplay. WHM would be the only not-neutered healer.

if using a greater extent of its available tools, nuances, optimizations, etc., is unneeded?

Again: You're saying WHM's not casting anything but Glare could still clear Savage/Extreme without weighing down their party?

It's not the "only solution." It's not even a solution whatsoever.

It's not only the only solution that works, it's far far FAR better than yours.

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You're saying I say "all" this or "all those" when I say "some" or "many". My arguments fully admit some people would be losing out. The thing you're not admitting is that, under your proposal, more people would be losing out, and they'd be losing out more completely since they wouldn't have any way to do the things they can already do today as they do them today.

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Here's the October 2022 Job population summary, btw:



Note that outside of JP specifically for Tanks with DRK, every other region has WAR, WHM, SAM/RPR, DNC (though all Ranged are easy, I guess), and SMN (then RDM) as the most played Jobs of each role/sub-role. These are also known as the easiest to play.

Notice where the most difficult to play - arguably PLD (with its half-dozen cursed openers), AST, MNK and NIN, and BLM - are all the least played Jobs in each role.

Many of those have aesthetics people love (like PLD and BLM), yet are still the least played. This is highly suggestive players do, in fact, consider complexity/difficulty in Job decisions.

Original Reddit discussion thread on the topic: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus..._october_2022/

Do note, as I said above, that this is not 100% proof - one could argue there are secondary effects like some people might prefer a complex Job but play RDM for their utility to their raid group - but it's suggestive that at least a good chunk of the player base does, in fact, like easier and simpler Jobs.

And note this was people with ilevel >610/615 as of October 2022, so this is people playing high end content, not just people doing Normals or leveling or just having a Job they got to 90 in 6.0 and haven't touched since. Specifically, a 610/615 ilevel weapon equipped. So that would have been Savage Raiders and Extreme heroes with Barbie Ex weapons/clears.

[ForsakenRoe]

So something like the Ocean-Hued Clam set from Genshin. It's a set of artifacts--equipment basically (for anyone not familiar) that grants this passive to whomever you equip it to:

"When the character equipping this artifact set heals a character in the party, a Sea-Dyed Foam will appear for 3 seconds, accumulating the amount of HP recovered from healing (including overflow healing). At the end of the duration, the Sea-Dyed Foam will explode, dealing DMG to nearby opponents based on 90% of the accumulated healing. (This DMG is calculated similarly to Reactions such as Electro-Charged, and Superconduct, but it is not affected by Elemental Mastery, Character Levels, or Reaction DMG Bonuses). Only one Sea-Dyed Foam can be produced every 3.5 seconds. Each Sea-Dyed Foam can accumulate up to 30,000 HP (including overflow healing). There can be no more than one Sea-Dyed Foam active at any given time. This effect can still be triggered even when the character who is using this artifact set is not on the field."

In layman's terms, Your overhealing is stored for a few seconds to a maximum of 30,000, and once the duration ends, that stored value explodes, dealing damage to nearby enemies.

Something like this can potentially function in this game, but it would be tricky to balance the numbers just right. Someone would end up needing to math out the DPS relationship with this overheal attack vs just direct DPS, and it would probably need to be limited by some factor like a cooldown or a gauge resource or something.

There's a CD you can take on Druids in WOW, a 90s CD that makes the next 30s of singletarget damage also copy 20% of the damage done as healing to a nearby ally. Except for Resto Druid, the healer spec, where it works in opposite: Healing dealt is converted to damage on a nearby enemy. And because Druid's healing style is to place many many different HOTs on everyone, it results on many many chips of damage being echoed onto a nearby enemy. We could have a CD that works as simply as 'when you deal single target healing, 50% of the healing is also dealt as damage in an AOE around the heal target'. A 'totem' of sorts like that Genshin one would work too, but I'd rather see that as a whole seperate job, that has many totems with different effects

(trimmed cos it's so bloody long)

Yes, I have - because unless the damage difference between optimal and suboptimal play was trivial, they would not be able to clear higher end content unless they engaged with it. Something even some of you have said either on your own or in response to my questions. And some have either said in their opinion or in their "I even actually want that" desire, those players shouldn't be allowed to clear content - that they can currently clear in the live game - unless they change their gameplay to the new style. This is actively taking away content from people.

Again: You're saying WHM's not casting anything but Glare could still clear Savage/Extreme without weighing down their party?

It's not only the only solution that works, it's far far FAR better than yours.

I'm going to be very honest. If someone is doing the 'hardest content in the game', they are expected to know how to play their class. If their class changes and becomes 'more complex' for whatever reason, they adapt. If they're doing Savage, they have the skill to adapt to rotation changes. We do it every expansion on any non-healer, because they get new DPS skills to use. You are arguing that there is not just one, but many, enough to cause a sizeable enough dent in SE's pocket, players who are simultaneously skilled enough to be doing Savage (and at a speed that means they can't just trivialize the enrages with more gear), and somehow at the same time, are completely incapable of learning how to juggle a second DOT. That if we change all four healers to have more DPS actions in their rotation, this massive chunk of hypothetical players will have no class to play, and just quit, rather than stepping up to the challenge and improving in terms of skill. It's insane to even imply.

If someone's pushing Savage/Extreme early enough that 'not using stuff beyond Glare spam is causing party to hit enrage', they're competent enough to press buttons beyond just Glare spam. If your hypothetical player who can clear Savage but also not use a second DOT existed (pretty sure they don't), I sure as heck wouldn't play with them in Savage. If Bio AND Miasma is too much for them to handle, how can the party trust them to do Devour right? Or High Concept? I wouldn't even trust them to handle the 'braindead' P7S markers, and that's.. well, braindead, its in the name. Besides, there's a world of difference between different pieces of high end content, both in terms of timing and level. Week 1 P5S has a tighter check than week 20 because of gear difference. But even then you can afford mistakes, because it's tuned for i600, and everyone's running i610 crafted gear. Week 5 P8S is harder check than week 5 P6S, because it's a later fight in the tier. So, again, if the hypothetical player runs into a situation where they can't just Glarespam their way through, they have choices, learn how to play their class properly (shock and horror) or wait till gear lets them bruteforce their way through. And again, if they are at ie, week 3 P8S, they're already competent enough to execute more complex rotations, even as a healer. I don't see why 'the player should be allowed to Glarespam to victory in content, and if they cannot, the content is what should change, not the players approach'. We already have issues with how steep the learning curve goes from story content>Extremes>Savage

Lastly, please remove your head from your backside before you suffocate, dying IRL would negatively affect your HPS output. You're almost sounding like FireMage with that last line

[ty_taurus]

There's a CD you can take on Druids in WOW, a 90s CD that makes the next 30s of singletarget damage also copy 20% of the damage done as healing to a nearby ally. Except for Resto Druid, the healer spec, where it works in opposite: Healing dealt is converted to damage on a nearby enemy. And because Druid's healing style is to place many many different HOTs on everyone, it results on many many chips of damage being echoed onto a nearby enemy. We could have a CD that works as simply as 'when you deal single target healing, 50% of the healing is also dealt as damage in an AOE around the heal target'. A 'totem' of sorts like that Genshin one would work too, but I'd rather see that as a whole seperate job, that has many totems with different effects

FFXIV would probably prefer something more with a defined max output where the effect stops after a certain amount of potency is reached. The game isn't balanced with heal potency values being converted to damage, having something like the genshin example where the total damage caps a certain potency would be the easiest way to balance that. Imagine Zoe Pneuma with that effect... With the Genshin example, though, it's more of an aura effect. In game it's a bubble that appears over your shoulder, follows you, and pops around you.

But you could ultimately hybridize the concepts to some level.

[IDontPetLalas]

When someone language starts incorporating language like change "screwing over a job", I start to think that now we are getting closer to one of the intrinsic reasons or even unconscious reasons that is the basis for their resistance to change.

Even the hint of change and the possibility that some people won't be able to adapt in the highest levels of content is simply not acceptable to them.

Well, this rather silly to me, I haven't played a game yet where those roles/classes in which updates were introduced, in which players at intermediate and certainly high skill levels (equivalent to Savage, Unreal) levels adapted or were left behind. In some cases, skills were modified, in some cases rotations were modified, in some cases skills were erased- whatever. Sometimes we had to wait a year or more if if was detrimental to QOL.

We even saw this recently applied to healers in PVP (I realize PVP is different, but bear with me). Those people who were used to being dedicated healers in FFXIV either adapted to very different support jobs in the present PVP design, or they likely re-rolled or stopped PVPing. They couldn't continue in the old way of PVPing, all healers were changed.

[ty_taurus]

FFXIV would probably prefer something more with a defined max output where the effect stops after a certain amount of potency is reached. The game isn't balanced with heal potency values being converted to damage, having something like the genshin example where the total damage caps a certain potency would be the easiest way to balance that. Imagine Zoe Pneuma with that effect... With the Genshin example, though, it's more of an aura effect. In game it's a bubble that appears over your shoulder, follows you, and pops around you.

But you could ultimately hybridize the concepts to some level.

To add something to this last statement...

I did mention something tangential to this concept actually with some of my WHM headspace ideas. Fleeting Familiar in FFVII Remake is an ability for Aerith that summons a butterfly that circles around her and automatically pelts enemies with chip damage. It's not very great in that game, but one idea I had of adopting that concept was essentially give you stacks that cause this aura effect to hit the nearest enemy to you for small pieces of damage, and once all the stacks are consumed, you nourish the blood lily.

Stacks would be triggered from any spell, whether those be DPS spells or healing spells, and the blood lily nourishment at the end gives it some interconnectivity within your own kit. In a similar vein, you could steal that structure and use it for something more focused on healing. Or you could even make a job that revolves around it. Healing fills your gauge, and when it's full, gives you a few different, more powerful offensive spells to pay for with that overhealing generation, though that could get quite finnicky to balance correctly.

[ForsakenRoe]

FFXIV would probably prefer something more with a defined max output where the effect stops after a certain amount of potency is reached. The game isn't balanced with heal potency values being converted to damage, having something like the genshin example where the total damage caps a certain potency would be the easiest way to balance that. Imagine Zoe Pneuma with that effect... With the Genshin example, though, it's more of an aura effect. In game it's a bubble that appears over your shoulder, follows you, and pops around you.

But you could ultimately hybridize the concepts to some level.

I did say 'single target healing', AOE stuff like Medica, Lilybell, Assize or Asylum would not be counted. Solace, Cure2, Cure1, Tetra and Bene would be the only things that'd work, maybe Cure3 but only the primary target. And Bene could probably be an exception so it's not just thrown in for damage. I picture it less as a 'do more damage' CD and more like... damage recapture? So if you foresee a part where you have to heal a lot (Brute Justice JWaves or something) with GCDs, you can pop this and get, not Glare level damage per GCD, but at least more than the 0 we currently would have.

We even saw this recently applied to healers in PVP (I realize PVP is different, but bear with me). Those people who were used to being dedicated healers in FFXIV either adapted to very different support jobs in the present PVP design, or they likely re-rolled or stopped PVPing. They couldn't continue in the old way of PVPing, all healers were changed.

Imagine if one of the healers (probably WHM if some people here got their way) in PVP didn't do any damage to enemies, it was all about keeping your team alive with healing. It'd be horrible to play against, and horrible to play AS, since you'd be target number one to get absolutely disintegrated, CCd out of the game and blown up before you can say 'Why didn't Guard save me'. And it'd mean less burst potential on your team, since you're essentially 4v5 in terms of damage output. The more I think about it the more I hate it why do I do this to myself