PLD changes

[Blitzgon]

Are you some sorta special kind of dumb? Let's just go ahead and tear at this quote and why you have no idea how to use PLD defensively.

Completely against expectations, it's actually the defensive toolkit - whose changes I thought were going to be pretty much a no-brainer! - that has me flummoxed. Clemency is still effectively unusable outside of early prog. Sheltron is still tied to oath gauge, and oath gauge is still tied to autoswings, so PLD remains the only tank to lose *mitigation* during downtime. Wings still... exists. Divine Veil finally finished being turned into Shake It Off, only a few patches later than it should have been! But then they added an additional regen effect to Shake It Off, so Divine Veil is just categorically worse than Shake It Off.

This is presumably because wings still exists... even though wings is almost never usable outside of what amount to cutscenes. They should have just removed wings and made Divine Veil better. Or changed wings to be an instant-effect circle instead of an awkward cone. Or *something.*

So, yes, Clem is not very useful outside of prog, though it is very nice to have a means to heal not only yourself but other party members when paired up with less then competent healers (Which seems to be a running theme with how much every class seems to be getting simplified down). Now, I want you to name me ANY instance where there is a tank buster, or tank specific damage happening that needs mitigation, that happens during downtime phases, phases in which you need heavy miti to survive. Do you not know about wings tech? You do know you can *Flash* your wings for a moment to apply the damage reduction to the party during, oh I dunno, all the spicy raid wides that we have in the current (Abyssos) raid tier? (The big exception being second phase of P8S since tanks need to stand away from the party for autos or risk murdering them) You can easily help your party out with not only veil, but also wings to greatly reduce damage taken, or even spread the mitigation out so you have veil for when you are up front tanking, and a quick wings flash for when you are OT. So in practice, PLD can help mitigate more damage then the one WAR exclusive party wide mit that it has, Speaking of which, you do know that both tanks have reprisal and can use them on different attacks correct? One can even use it for busters while the other tank can use theirs for raid wide damage. Crazy thought I know.

So in a nutshell, removing wings is a terrible idea and you should really learn how to use the tools given in a class kit, or just play WAR and not have to work more then that one braincell you seem to struggle using to comprehend PLDs tool set.

[Renathras]

...

People complaining about Passage of Arms always confuses me.

The community constantly rails against homogenization. When things happen like Overpower turning from a cone into a circle, people say the sky is falling and the era of samey homogenized boredom is here and all skill expression has been removed from the game.

...but then you have abilities that are different, that require things like positioning and understanding nuance and the underlying mechanics - like Wings having a cone, being based on your facing, and with a mechanic nuance in flashing it - and people complain about it and demand it be changed.

Then if it's ever changed, complain how it's "just like Job X" when it WAS different.

In this very thread, people are complaining about Veil being Shake It Off 2.0. But what were they expecting? People have been asking for it to become JUST THAT (affect the PLD, not require a heal to trigger, etc) until it became the very thing they demanded it become...just so they could complain about it now being just like another Job's ability and be upset about it.

I can't tell if it's just people like to complain or people don't realize they're arguing for homogenized boredom and lack the foresight to see that's what they're demanding, only able to see it for what it is once the change has been made and they ruined it for everyone else. Probably a bit of both...

[Rithy255]

People complaining about Passage of Arms always confuses me.

The community constantly rails against homogenization. When things happen like Overpower turning from a cone into a circle, people say the sky is falling and the era of samey homogenized boredom is here and all skill expression has been removed from the game.

...but then you have abilities that are different, that require things like positioning and understanding nuance and the underlying mechanics - like Wings having a cone, being based on your facing, and with a mechanic nuance in flashing it - and people complain about it and demand it be changed.

Then if it's ever changed, complain how it's "just like Job X" when it WAS different.

In this very thread, people are complaining about Veil being Shake It Off 2.0. But what were they expecting? People have been asking for it to become JUST THAT (affect the PLD, not require a heal to trigger, etc) until it became the very thing they demanded it become...just so they could complain about it now being just like another Job's ability and be upset about it.

I can't tell if it's just people like to complain or people don't realize they're arguing for homogenized boredom and lack the foresight to see that's what they're demanding, only able to see it for what it is once the change has been made and they ruined it for everyone else. Probably a bit of both...

It really doesn't require "thinking" to use passage of arms, it's a annoyance that's inconsistent depending on the fight that's the issue? I dislike "homogenization" but the Divine veil changes were perfect, I don't know who's complaining that it's now less annoying to use.

homogenization isn't always bad it isn't always good, for example I wouldn't find a DPS raid buff where you have to position it a "interesting" and unique mechanic, it would feel awful and clunky to use. Theirs good differences between classes and bad ones, being annoying to use for the sake of being "unique" isn't good design. we should strive for unique and fun ways of utility, rotation, buffs but we should want abilities that are "unique" but in a good way, not in a more punishing way, that feels underwhelming.

[Renathras]

It really doesn't require "thinking" to use passage of arms, it's a annoyance that's inconsistent depending on the fight that's the issue?

This is literally the argument for every homogenization effort in MMO history.

It's always because something is "annoying" or "inconsistent" etc that causes homogenization to try to make them not that by making them all the same.

Everyone thinks the thing they are asking for isn't the dreaded homogenization. People asking for a Knockback immunity on non-PLDs (only PLDs had it in ARR) don't think they're asking for homogenization. People asking for more oGCD heals for their healer didn't think they were asking for homogenization. People asking for Feint and Addle to work on the other damage type didn't think they were asking for homogenization. No one asking for something to be changed thinks they're asking for homogenization.

I dislike "homogenization" but the Divine veil changes were perfect, I don't know who's complaining that it's now less annoying to use.

No one's complaining it's less annoying to use. People are complaining it's basically a reskinned Shake It Off - e.g. that homogenization has happened.

homogenization isn't always bad

Oh, this is completely true, I agree.

Yet people complain about homogenization. All I was doing was pointing out this is how we get it.

Passage isn't terribly annoying to use. It really isn't. It's one of the few things a tank has now that actually is based on things like positioning - something that use to be a staple of overall tanking. It's not hard or annoying or inconsistent. You simply face where your party is behind you in a stack mechanic. You tap it on. Then you move. There's nothing annoying or inconsistent about that. It consistently works the same way every time, and parties that communicate make use of it. And it's consistently easy to use since all you have to do is face a direction and push a button.

Annoying is a subjective term. Inconsistent is an objective term.

It's objectively consistent, thus it is not inconsistent.

And subjectively, many people find it to not be annoying and, in fact, to be a fun ability. Good design, in other words, that is unique and flavorful as well as being useful and functional.

This would be akin to arguing Sacred Soil needs to be turned into Kerachole because the positioning element makes it bad.

[Rithy255]

Reply to Above: (to ren)
you listed a bunch of good changes, addle and faint changes Good, knockback immunity on Jobs Good, I'm asking for some homogenization because some is good to have. PLD's already pretty unique in the fact of having situationally good abilities like cover, clemency ect. having ranged attacks, I also like the idea of having more utility in raid wides then other tanks, making PAO easier to use would make the job more enjoyable for me despite being "ez". Divine veil was already Shake it off, but worse to use, Passage of arms basically functions as Heart of light or dark Missionary it's a damage reduction, the only benefit is a extra 5% for being on a longer cd and what i find annoying and situational to use, Also because I want *some* things to be more easier to use on PLD I also think we should be looking at the Job's gauge adding skill expression and reward to timing defensives well, theirs some aspects I'd personally want to make PLD differ from the other tanks, but also have some similarities in terms of defensive kits.

bad homogenization would be removing Utility for the sake of every job got to do the same damage, bad homogenization is making it so raid buffs always have to synch up into 120 windows, it's also bad to make the jobs play the same which again making a raid wide similar to others doens't really do lol.

I find PAO a pain to use, snap shot it for people behind you is inconsistent, even the duration is dependent on server ticks, a lot of mechs where using any other raid wide would be better because people don't or can't stack behind you, I really don't think boosting up it's consistency is a bad change, I felt like DV was way more annoying to use but I still just think POA is a pain for me to use, I'd like to use it more often if: "double raid wides" are the benefit of playing a PLD over any other tank.

Sacred soil change sounds fine with me not going to lie, I don't really wanna stand in a bubble. But in general healers need a overhaul and meaningful differences in how they do DPS and support.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

...but then you have abilities that are different, that require things like positioning and understanding nuance and the underlying mechanics - like Wings having a cone, being based on your facing, and with a mechanic nuance in flashing it - and people complain about it and demand it be changed.

There's a difference between being actually different and being clunky/annoying for the sake of being different. For example, if Overpower required you to hit enemies with the very tip of the cone in order to do any damage at all, it would surely be a unique skill, but a very vast majority would be celebrating from the rooftops when they nerfed it into a circle 'get hit anywhere inside of it to do damage' ability. it's why you saw so many angry at Overpower's circleification compared to Veil getting streamlined. Overpower was intuitive to use on its own and very not-jank, thus its change was uneeded. Veil & Passage both had/have jank to them, thus why you see plenty of attitudes towards Veil's change as positive comparatively to Overpower's change.

People enjoy difference, so long as said difference isn't rooted in the ability being clunky or jank. Passage is a prime example of this. It's different, but its difference is rooted in it being extremely annoying to use, thus plenty of people would rather see it homogenized to being temperance 2.0 than having it exist in its current form. Similarly with Divine Veil, if the ability could be manually procc'd by the PLD without saccing a GCD to clemency at maybe like half shield strength, or if it could be procced by OGCD heals instead of purely GCD ones from healers, I doubt there'd have been many arguments towards wanting it simplified.

Or even better example, Living Dead. The skill was absolutely unique, but its uniqueness was rooted in it being effective garbage to control & use compared to the other tank options without a white mage cheat button, and the infinitely vast majority would rather have seen it be turned into hallowed 2.0 than kept as it was. Luckily Square managed to make it infinitely more usable while keeping a flair of its uniqueness.

For example, if Passage didn't require a channel and was deployed on the ground like salted Earth, and also had the ability to warp it around by pressing the button again during its duration so it could be more useful on movement heavy damage like DSR gigaflare, Passage would be infinitely more usable, less clunky and still retain its uniqueness among the tank CDs due to it requiring actual thought than the traditional 'fire and forget' 90% of tank CDs are. When some people argue about these skill's jankiness, they're likely not hoping the skill just gets homogenized, they're likely hoping Square will do something to the skill to keep it unique while making it not ridiculously stupid to use compared to other abilities.

Also besides the point, the people arguing for simplification of skills and the people arguing about jobs being homogenized after the fact likely aren't the same people. People can have differing opinions and be after different things.