Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.

[VelKallor]

First, I doubt anyone who'd be willing to give the majority of "toxic" (especially in that gap between how we seem to allow the term to be defined as a community here, vs. how it seems less liberally applied/smeared elsewhere) comments given here would be any less willing to give the same tenor and content of comments in similar situations in real life.

Im sure they would be willing.....problem is the consequences of what they are about to do would be very obvious. Screaming epithets and obscenities at someone in public usually has a less than desirable outcome.

Ill sum this up best way I can: my basic opposition to the idea of a dps meter is the fact it, as has been said, becomes an enabling mechanic for the kind of conduct we do not want to see replicated in FF 14.

Respect is earned, not bestowed. It isnt given out like lollies either. The concept of 'disrespect" goes both ways, as has been pointed out, you do x dps they scream and say they want you to do y they now want z and on and on and on until what we wind up with is a self defeating digital appendage waving contest.

This

DPS meters promote instrumental play over social play.

is the key element that has been overlooked. When you turn a game into a series of number crunching spreadsheets and an obsession with "optimal", social elements are discarded in their entirety.

A game should be a place where you log off relaxed, happy, having had an enjoyable experience...not even more wound up and stressed than when you sat down.

[Rolder50]

is the key element that has been overlooked. When you turn a game into a series of number crunching spreadsheets and an obsession with "optimal", social elements are discarded in their entirety.

This is straight up already happening. There's a reason people make spreadsheets to map out optimal use of healing cooldowns and stuff in Savage even though it's 100% not needed.

[Effendi]

Maybe the fact that there are ALREADY dps meters and this doesn't happen? Hmm.

Yes, there are. But not easily accessible in game, and not officially sanctioned.

And the fact that they exist, does not imply in any way that they need to be made legitimate via inclusion in the game client.

[Effendi]

This is straight up already happening. There's a reason people make spreadsheets to map out optimal use of healing cooldowns and stuff in Savage even though it's 100% not needed.

Again, X happening does not in any way indicate that we need more of X to happen. If anything it's an argument to remove the ability to parse logs.

[Shurrikhan]

DPS meters promote instrumental play over social play.

is the key element that has been overlooked. When you turn a game into a series of number crunching spreadsheets and an obsession with "optimal", social elements are discarded in their entirety.

A game should be a place where you log off relaxed, happy, having had an enjoyable experience...not even more wound up and stressed than when you sat down.

I think you've picked a framework (or, the two terms therein) that will have an unfortunately hard time parsing the situation at hand, though.

Consider, what are social play and instrumental play here?

I don't think you'd find anyone advocating seriously/informedly for that framework who'd accept so shallow a definition of instrumental play, for instance, as one that uses a given tool -- other than the player themself as a holistic assemblage of leveraged knowledge, practice, and tact, etc. Similarly, from what point does finding/drawing a/the line of reasonable expectations for social responsibility (you signed on for X, so you should be at least capable of X-1) not also fall within social play?

I apologize if I'm conflating your position with a larger one just due to recency bias, but it seems there's a tendency by those bandying those terms (the social vs. the instrumental) of late to

• villainize the "instrumental" beyond its actual effect (which, I would argue, is simply that which comes after rough agreement, at which point one must simply do, rather than creating the rules of what/how ought be done),
  
  
• ignore the less kind aspects of social play (most "toxic" events we think of, by nature, almost wholly social -- even if they may make reference to more sophisticated evidence provided by a given tool, in place of less sophisticated forms otherwise available without, or may be argued around a given game feature like relevant achievement score [or, IO] or actual throughput or avoidable damage taken, etc. in place of less relevant or proximate grounds),
  
  
• ignore that many group tasks expect a degree of immutable instrumentation (to be competent, not just RP as competent).

Or, per the question of real-time concrete information (in-game parsing), what do you presume is being absorbed from would-be social play and into instrumental?

I've mentioned before the effect I've seen it have, so long as those tools are available to all -- and thereby balanced in that availability (each participant has the same facts, though --and this is key-- not necessarily the same understanding of them, with no threat of repudiation/reprisal for simply being more concretely informed):

• Less social play is spent on areas typically considered disruptive and upsetting -- e.g., finger-pointing, blame-tossing, obfuscation, self-interested reframing.

  Compared to XIV's current state, this would also have other benefits, in that it'd no longer feature players effectively bearing arms against each other through silent kicks (parsing players vs. those truly unprepared but ignorant, costing them the chance to improve unless they, too, risk getting a parser) or ban threats (for seeming too informed, which in turn leads to the silent kicks and rapid disbandment.

• Less of what should be considered criteria of success is argued, for better or worse; further argument about the stuff being measured (e.g., dps) or what those measures get conflated with (performance, etc.) typically has to wind itself around the existing ways that stuff is featured by the game through those measurements.
  

  This makes getting those measures as appropriate as possible as soon as possible rather important, else you end up those less seen and less talked about areas of "toxicity" wherein, by nature of what ways were formed for/of considering success, etc., some efforts may not be valued as much as others. Note that this is not different from what comes from social play; it's the same result as if a different way were formed each time, except in that this one gets popularized through convenience, and therefore imbeds itself far more firmly, eventually becoming mostly unquestioned and simply done.

A game should be a place where you log off relaxed, happy, having had an enjoyable experience...not even more wound up and stressed than when you sat down.

I'd agree. I just don't think allowing everyone a well-made in-game parser would make the game any less relaxed, happy, or enjoyable, nor any more wound up or stressed, than it is now. Quite the opposite. I think that --given that harassment of any sort (which, yes, inherently includes harassment that may be informed by parsers, just as it would harassment informed by fflogs, lodestone, word choice, glamour choice, grammar, mic quality, nationality, home ownership, or anything else a player might see/learn of another) is already punished-- the "don't ask, don't tell" policy actually brings out the worst in people.

That "harassment via parsers" (as if there were anything fundamentally different) is effectively double-banned is not an added safety, but rather a waste that invites spiteful exploitation and generally makes these areas of interaction all the worse, even if it nicely(?) obscures the effects. It seems kind of a "Bruises better not show (but here are some brass knuckles for everyone, in case anyone tries anything that'd be more obvious)" approach to combating "toxicity".

Respect is earned, not bestowed. It isnt given out like lollies either.

I'm not sure what you mean to say by this. You seem to argue that respect should be given only sparingly? Is "bestowed" here to mean only as a reward for a narrow sort of performance? Divine mandate?

(Definitionally, I would think bestowed would even be the more appropriate term, if only for having additional meanings atop "to give, usually as a due reward"; it would normally mean also to accommodate or to create a ready surplus for. Would we not want to create a place for respectful outcomes and sometime risk giving more than is deserved, even, for the purpose of influencing people to be so deserving?)

The concept of 'disrespect" goes both ways, as has been pointed out, you do x dps they scream and say they want you to do y they now want z and on and on and on until what we wind up with is a self defeating digital appendage waving contest.

That people can have unreasonable expectations on either end (going into a Savage run without being able yet to even rotate properly on a striking dummy, or expecting experienced micro-optimizations out of first-job players in a leveling dungeon) doesn't mean that we can't come to reasonable agreements on what expectations are decently fair, however.
_____________

Finally, though...

Screaming epithets and obscenities at someone in public usually has a less than desirable outcome.

Where have you seen that come specifically from a player having the concrete facts of the matter at hand, though? That is to say, when has a player actually knowing each person's performance, instead of simply assuming from distracted eye-balled and likely confirmation-biased evidence that they are underperforming, made them suddenly act worse? (On the contrary, I suspect people double down all the harder when faced with uncertainty, more likely devolving into obsessive "me vs. them" behavior.)

Facts themselves are plain, dull, and hardly make as good a grip for obsession. The question is merely the dissonance between what facts are featured and what other relevant facts are thereby less featured.

And, again, harassment is harassment. That the person has one more source of information that they may reference in that harassment does not make it somehow different, let alone any better or worse. It's just still harassment. Under the very same (mostly) harassment-intolerant rules.

(Now, if we could do something about the letter of the law allowing for breaches against the spirit of the law, we might also have fewer cases of stalking, sexual harassment, etc., slipping through.)

When you turn a game into a series of number crunching spreadsheets and an obsession with "optimal", social elements are discarded in their entirety.

This happens regardless of real-time information as per parsers. Heck, this happens even to the likes of table-top games (DnD, etc.).

[Midareyukki]

And such, I asked to not be invalidated. The whole "You can't have an opinion, you're a noob" is invalidation. I'm 100% okay with people disagreeing with me, but not that.

Did he say that? Did he mean that?

Because you just went on a gigantic spiel to counter me... and yet the whole point remains.

All he said was that your opinions come from an inexperienced mindset. So naturally, once you don't have the facts, your point of view, no matter how valid it may appear to you, is tainted by misinformation and biases.

So rather than say "lol you're a noob you get no opinion", I took from what you quoted that he told you "Consider otherwise".

So please. Rather than getting butthurt that someone is pointing out "Yo, you might have it wrong here", please actually stop to consider that people are NOT OUT TO GET YOU.

[Asari5]

yeah a dps meter would create problems. but to be fair its not perfect without either. so many, many, MANY players who dont pull their own weight.
and its funny even looking at easy content like dungeons its a give and a take between tanks, healers and dps. many people are afraid to play healer and tank because of the responsibility. but if the dps would pull their own weight playing the other two roles would become easier. but somehow people are blind to this and they decide to be deaf about it too. dps too have a responsibility but many people dont see it if you dont push it into their face. a dps meter would be a solution to that. it may even help player to decide playing tank or heal and not to sleep on an apparently unimportant role without responsibility

[Zebraoracle]

DPS meters promote instrumental play over social play. Which in WoW case lead it to become the toxic cesspool it is now. I don't want the same in FF14.

For you to convince me, you'd need to prove why humans playing FF14 will behave differently than humans that play WoW when presented with the same stimuli.

Do you raid in 14? As in, do you do savage and ultimates? Because this is literally the game design of these fights. People map out mitigation timelines. People map out optimal burst windows. People map out optimal healing windows. It's literally already happening regardless of ACT because 14's savage and ultimate fights are DDR dances that are meant to be solved.


EDIT: Oh right, I'm supposed to be done worrying about this thread. Whoops

[Midareyukki]

DPS meters promote instrumental play over social play. Which in WoW case lead it to become the toxic cesspool it is now. I don't want the same in FF14.

For you to convince me, you'd need to prove why humans playing FF14 will behave differently than humans that play WoW when presented with the same stimuli.

Instrumental play isn't necessarily the future of asking for DPS meters. And let's also not act as though these things must be public upon implementation. There are ways around it.

Though I'd argue that instrumental play is technically promoted by fight design. There are DPS checks. There are mechanics and downtime which screw some classes over more than others, requiring them to adjust per-fight. And at the core of it all also lies the fact that our gameplay is reduced to DDR-esque rotations. Our own class rotations are like a very specific dance that shift depending on the fight's requirements. You can learn a generic fit-for-all rotation, but if you want to take the extra step, there are adjustments and optimizations.

And these things all require something to take the measure of what's going on. The timing of things, the skills used and when they can be delayed, how long for and any detriments later down the line. All stuff like that.

At its bare basic scenario, a damage meter is only going to present you with a condensed information about how much you contributed. The rest does come from the player itself. And you want to know a few things we have above WoW? A strict ToS and a mod team that tends to shoot first, ask questions never. That alone is already a detriment to quite a lot.

And besides o: it's not like parses don't already exist. For sure, your own information is publicly available outside the game. This thread would only do away with the need for third party tools, the information would likely be all the same. The mindset won't change that much on whether it's "officially sanctioned". Because here's the kicker. What's sanctioned is you being measured. Your logs don't need to be made public on something the devs themselves made; fflogs is public by fan design, the devs can easily turn that around. What isn't, and the crux of your fear, is hostility and toxicity around those logs should they be made public. Which, again, if it happens, you're in the right to report the person away. As you do anyway nowadays.

Every sport is almost entirely instrumental (the social components being only the --themselves very short-- decisions to modify the format or rules of the game), and I'm not just talking about at the competitive level (even the middle or high school levels thereof). Yet that hasn't made playing some tennis with friends some inherent cesspit of toxicity. And while stakes may raise in just going from rallying to adding the tracked scores of playing in games and sets, neither does that suddenly make it toxic.

I think this is what's called in the world of sports "fair play".

And when you're toxic, you get punished.

[Shurrikhan]

DPS meters promote instrumental play over social play.

So does every additional level of difficulty for which falling behind on dps would cause a wipe. These tools don't come out of nowhere; they fit a need their games already generally have.

When did fflogs so take off (then xivhiro, and then back to fflogs as when it added rDPS)? Gordias. Coincidence? In part, probably, because people were already starting to compare numbers from back in original Savage (when it was an additional challenge mode rather than simply the new [slightly above] normal mode with normal becoming reduced difficulty), but there was certainly some influence.

Every sport is almost entirely instrumental (the social components being only the --themselves very short-- decisions to modify the format or rules of the game), and I'm not just talking about at the competitive level (even the middle or high school levels thereof). Yet that hasn't made playing some tennis with friends some inherent cesspit of toxicity. And while stakes may raise in just going from rallying to adding the tracked scores of playing in games and sets, neither does that suddenly make it toxic.

Nor is the average Heroic PuG there any more toxic than the average Savage PuG here. (Quite the opposite, it's seemed, if only due to larger raid sizes and less PK-happy fight designs.)

Because here's the kicker. What's sanctioned is you being measured. Your logs don't need to be made public on something the devs themselves made; fflogs is public by fan design, the devs can easily turn that around. What isn't, and the crux of your fear, is hostility and toxicity around those logs should they be made public. Which, again, if it happens, you're in the right to report the person away. As you do anyway nowadays.

Aye. And it's a slightly weird point to think about. The XIV policy already allows for all one's information about their performance to be stored publicly without one's consent. All it effectively forbids is your looking and your raid's information in real time.