Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.

[Kira619]

Yes, an irony that hasn't gone unnoticed here or among other communities at large.

Oh that's not surprising at all. No community will ever say their community is outright bad. Because too many people tie their identities to the gaming communities they associate with. FFXIV has constantly had a reputation of having a pleasant community. You combine that with the fact that no other MMO cracked even the nomination and it's not surprising that other communities are getting the "my poop smell like roses" moment lol.

I've always put it this way. Did you think folks in the south who endorsed slavery saw themselves as villains? Did you think folks who did not want integration saw themselves as bad? So why in the world should we expect folks who are toxic today to self reflect.
History is constantly repeating itself and has shown that only when generations pass that people reflect and be like "Yoo, that group was messed up."

This has got to be grade A satire, right?

Have you really not seen any of the dozen+ Titanragingfistbro/Ativan/Etc., troll threads here, specifically on those subjects?

Our mods, meanwhile, are inexistant outside of taking down occasional 200+ page megathreads if they start getting too constructive and/or coordinated in their criticisms.

Honestly it's not, I've just never seen those threads. Though right now, I can go to the WoW main general discussion thread and see 4 threads in the last 24 hours dealing with this. So even if it does happen here, it's definitely not as frequent.

[Zebraoracle]

Oh that's not surprising at all. No community will ever say their community is outright bad. Because too many people tie their identities to the gaming communities they associate with. FFXIV has constantly had a reputation of having a pleasant community. You combine that with the fact that no other MMO cracked even the nomination and it's not surprising that other communities are getting the "my poop smell like roses" moment lol.

I've always put it this way. Did you think folks in the south who endorsed slavery saw themselves as villains? Did you think folks who did not want integration saw themselves as bad? So why in the world should we expect folks who are toxic today to self reflect.
History is constantly repeating itself and has shown that only when generations pass that people reflect and be like "Yoo, that group was messed up."

I think you're missing Shurrikhan's point. 14's community is known for its toxic positivity and passive aggressiveness.

Generally, the random person you're going to run into in WoW or 14 is going to be anywhere from pleasant to completely neutral, but whereas when you run into an unpleasant person in WoW you're more likely to run into someone who doesn't care about TOS rules against harassment and is more likely to react aggressively. In 14, the TOS is so strict and punishing that the unpleasant people adopt a more passive aggressive stance where they can still be toxic, just in such a way that they can't easily be hit by the TOS book of judgement. And then you have people that will mad whenever someone tries to offer advice, you have enablers for leeches ("let them play how they want!", "let's just get this done guys ", etc). You have idiotic drama outside of duties with things like stalkers who can't easily be reported because TECHNICALLY they're not breaking any rules, but boy howdy do they constantly make the person they're stalking uncomfortable and upset. At one point the hunt community was EXTREMELY toxic, from people thinking they're entitled to A and S rank marks to groups of mark spawners and train conductors enacting blacklists against people who didn't follow along with the clique, I don't know how it is now but in ShB it was embarrassing how awful that community was.

[Kira619]

Bro... lol. Is your level 34 summoner your highest level job? If so, maybe step back and realize you are not experienced enough with 14's community to have a completely educated opinion, otherwise you're going to be in for an unpleasant surprise.

Or people can just have different experiences? I have a few FFXIV characters, all played at different times. I've also played WoW for years, all the way back in classic. I've never said I was the spokesperson for the FFXIV community, but even if my 34 summoner was my only character, that doesn't invalidate the experience I had/have playing either game. Hence why I said I hard disagree, versus "you're wrong." It's perfectly fine to disagree with me, it's not fine to try and invalidate me.

[Zebraoracle]

Or people can just have different experiences? I have a few FFXIV characters, all played at different times. I've also played WoW for years, all the way back in classic. I've never said I was the spokesperson for the FFXIV community, but even if my 34 summoner was my only character, that doesn't invalidate the experience I had/have playing either game. Hence why I said I hard disagree, versus "you're wrong." It's perfectly fine to disagree with me, it's not fine to try and invalidate me.

Please do not twist my words around, thanks. I never said your experience didn't matter, I said if you're only level 34 then you've not had enough exposure to the game to have a COMPLETELY educated opinion. This isn't invalidating you. It's saying you literally have not been exposed to the game long enough to know as much about it as you could.

[KeshLives]

Again, if we limit in game parsers to ONLY content with enrages (extreme, savage, ultimate), the people that are so worried about this will not be affected whatsoever. Do you realize how small the raiding community in 14 actually is? A tiny minority of players, and the ultimate crowd is even smaller than that. An in game parser for this content only is not going to have any negative affect on dungeon runners whatsoever.

So how do you think you could limit an in-game parser to only that (as you acknowledged) tiny community? Also, the devs are not in the habit of giving anything special (past the savage/ultimate content itself) to a segment that small, anyway, so why would they want to start parsers there?

I think the devs leave it this way on purpose. Those who really want a parser, can have one, but they can't misuse it against other people, w/o getting banned, and if it becomes a problem, they can just cut off the source of the data to the parser, however that works, and leave it that way. A built-in one would cause a lot more trouble if it was disabled or removed. As you say, the community that really wants it...is tiny, so why would the devs want to spend time and effort on it more than they already do?

I don't think they really are interested in boosting said community any more than absolutely necessary. I'm not attacking said community, just noting that while they do add new savage/ultimate content as they go, it's only 'enough' at one time to give that tiny community something to do, and seemingly no more than that. YMMV, of course.

[Kira619]

I think you're missing Shurrikhan's point. 14's community is known for its toxic positivity and passive aggressiveness.

Generally, the random person you're going to run into in WoW or 14 is going to be anywhere from pleasant to completely neutral, but whereas when you run into an unpleasant person in WoW you're more likely to run into someone who doesn't care about TOS rules against harassment and is more likely to react aggressively. In 14, the TOS is so strict and punishing that the unpleasant people adopt a more passive aggressive stance where they can still be toxic, just in such a way that they can't easily be hit by the TOS book of judgement. And then you have people that will mad whenever someone tries to offer advice, you have enablers for leeches ("let them play how they want!", "let's just get this done guys ", etc). You have idiotic drama outside of duties with things like stalkers who can't easily be reported because TECHNICALLY they're not breaking any rules, but boy howdy do they constantly make the person they're stalking uncomfortable and upset. At one point the hunt community was EXTREMELY toxic, from people thinking they're entitled to A and S rank marks to groups of mark spawners and train conductors enacting blacklists against people who didn't follow along with the clique, I don't know how it is now but in ShB it was embarrassing how awful that community was.

Oh I understood Shurrikhan's point. To clarify, never had I said 14's community was perfect by any means. (The stalking aspect is by far the worst.), but I also figured much of the complaints towards 14 would come from a mindset more suited with WoW. So, it's not surprising that the mindsets that closer aligns with WoW would find 14 to have toxic positivity.


Edit: So very strange, I can't seem to reply anymore cause I reached my maximum posts for the day? So I'll just respond tomorrow.

[Zebraoracle]

So how do you think you could limit an in-game parser to only that (as you acknowledged) tiny community? Also, the devs are not in the habit of giving anything special (past the savage/ultimate content itself) to a segment that small, anyway, so why would they want to start parsers there?

It's a hypothetical, like this entire thread. We're arguing in hypotheticals. And the "want" is because that is content that has hard enrages that if you don't meet the DPS check, you fail.

I think the devs leave it this way on purpose. Those who really want a parser, can have one, but they can't misuse it against other people, w/o getting banned, and if it becomes a problem, they can just cut off the source of the data to the parser, however that works, and leave it that way. A built-in one would cause a lot more trouble if it was disabled or removed. As you say, the community that really wants it...is tiny, so why would the devs want to spend time and effort on it more than they already do?

Agreed with this. I've said already I personally don't care if they're added since ACT does exist. My whole issue in this thread is most of the arguments AGAINST an in-game parsing tool have been in such bad faith. The best argument actually stated in this thread against parsing is still "YoshiP said he doesn't want them in game and we have a don't ask don't tell policy about ACT". Just sucks for console players.

I don't think they really are interested in boosting said community any more than absolutely necessary. I'm not attacking said community, just noting that while they do add new savage/ultimate content as they go, it's only 'enough' at one time to give that tiny community something to do, and seemingly no more than that. YMMV, of course.

On the flip side of that same coin, what harm does it do if for only that content? I can't imagine an in game parsing tool taking up a significant amount of dev time, the info is already there in the combat log. And again, it's helpful because of the enrages of that content.

[VelKallor]

I'll consider it. Not to seem like I'm pity seeking, but the last month has been really brutal for me and I don't know that I have it in me to listen to an hour and a half of *that*. Plus I already have a hard time listening to long videos of someone just talking.

Damn post limit, I kept hitting it all day yesterday...

Its your call of course Maybe bookmark it and come back?

Take care.

[Zebraoracle]

Oh I understood Shurrikhan's point. To clarify, never had I said 14's community was perfect by any means. (The stalking aspect is by far the worst.), but I also figured much of the complaints towards 14 would come from a mindset more suited with WoW. So, it's not surprising that the mindsets that closer aligns with WoW would find 14 to have toxic positivity.

Fair enough. But it's not really fair to say "mindsets that closer align with WoW" when there are plenty of 14 players who have never touched WoW and are aware of the toxic undercurrent of 14.

[Shurrikhan]

Oh, the forums isn't really where the difference is. By definition, the forums are full of people who are there to complain.

The difference is in actual behavior in-game, and, frankly, the people who claim that WoW isn't toxic? They would fit right in there, and don't notice the toxicity from there...because they're part of it, and a main part of the source of it. Of course it's not toxic to them. They LIKE that kind of atmosphere, and they enjoy it. To them, that's how they want it all the time. They want to point out other people that they can be superior to. That's heaven to them. They just want to make that the norm in FFXIV.

Ngl, that seems like projective xenophobia, and a conclusion hardly tenable if one had played significant amounts of that game.

Your argument here relies on intentionally conflating a term. You fully admit that (a long-time, pragmatic viewpoint on what constitutes) "toxicity" in WOW would be different from toxicity here. Yet you apply the less fitting / stricter definition only in one direction, to the effect of "XIV good; other bad."

Toxicity there, for instance, might include abusing legalities, such as leveraging the letter of the law to corrupt its spirit (to bait, despite and through obvious social breech of social contract yourself, others into making a minor but punishable breech of ToA). It might involve entitlement, such as by wasting everyone else's time in expecting them to carry one through their gross lack of preparation well outside expectable deviation from norms on the mere basis that they chose to use a random matchmaker (and thereby, somehow, specifically to be grouped with that specific person rather than just anyone within reasonable estimates), or --on the opposite extreme-- wasting everyone's time by holding them to an unreasonably standard before making any significant step forward. It might involve harassment as determined through malicious intent, regardless of whether it be spoken, written, emoted, or even just through repeated and conspicuous presence not otherwise reasonably warrantable.

On the other hand, it won't likely include things like giving advice, even if it's sternly worded (since most would reasonably expect you to have equipped more than just your basic single-target combo... by level 40, let alone 90), or to dodge AoEs that were clearly telegraphed more two seconds prior to their actuation. It might not include giving complete tacit powers over to the tank even in content too trivial for that to have any significant advantage on the mere basis that doing otherwise might invoke either communication (since only silence can risk no toxicity, I guess?) or a faux pas.

Would WoW's community then be toxic by WoW's standards (or, the most commonly shared stances upon them)? Some parts of it, probably... which the vast majority of that community wouldn't then be happy with. (They tend not to be happy, either, with systems that give rise to that -- see that community's rough consensus against the most notable consequences of failure being dumped on just 1 in 5 players in any given M+ run due to how keystones work.)

But, so would XIV's community. Probably more so. Granted, that wouldn't then be a comparison wholly fair to XIV, either. You'd need to find some understanding of "toxicity" shared between both ends and compare from that, not tossing frameworks from a "police state's" approach onto a comparatively "anarchical" one in full and with no further context.

If you're to contrast communities on the basis of a shared term of unshared meaning, wouldn't it make more sense to do so only on the basis of the meanings therein that are shared across each community involved in that comparison? Frankly, anything less seems intended, from the start, to generate only skewed results -- rather disingenuous, to say the least.