Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.

[Kira619]

Hard Disagree, you only need to venture into anything inclusive related (such as their DnD removal of race thread) to see how bad it is on their forum. FFXIV has won the game awards for best community, WoW wasn't even listed in the nominations. In gaming alone, I felt more welcomed in my brief time leveling this character than my entire experience playing WoW. I still remember when I hit level 30, half of the players in the bar celebrated and did fireworks. These were players I've never played before in my life. Just a couple of days ago, I was just chilling in Ul'Dah and a random player just gave me a minion for free. Just out of the blue. That's when I realized "Oh, so this is what people were talking about."

I've played WoW for years, and not once have random players celebrated an achievement I've done or gave me anything for free. The most would be a random wow player using an item to transform me into something, and that's on a RP server, which is the most chill.

So yeah, we're definitely going to have to agree to disagree on FFXIV being anywhere near as bad as WoW. When this place starts coming up with a plethora of threads making fun of inclusive ideas such as pronouns, race, and more, than we can have a discussion. Though I don't believe that will be happening since the Mods, from what I hear, are usually on their A game.

[Shurrikhan]

FFXIV has won the game awards for best community

Yes, an irony that hasn't gone unnoticed here or among other communities at large.

So yeah, we're definitely going to have to agree to disagree on FFXIV being anywhere near as bad as WoW. When this place starts coming up with a plethora of threads making fun of inclusive ideas such as pronouns, race, and more, than we can have a discussion. Though I don't believe that will be happening since the Mods, from what I hear, are usually on their A game.

This has got to be grade A satire, right?

Have you really not seen any of the dozen+ Titanragingfistbro/Ativan/Etc., troll threads here, specifically on those subjects? They're a near perfect analog to the shit-stirring trans posts on WoW (where such posts are lead by a troll seemingly in support of such and such cause, but style that "advocacy" in such a purposely belligerent and hyperbolic manner as to just be inviting dog-piles against them and those they "support").

Our mods, meanwhile, are inexistant outside of taking down occasional 200+ page megathreads if they start getting too constructive and/or coordinated in their criticisms?

We're no worse than most, but neither is this place some unique paradise. It's just better at keeping tensions quiet (to fester) and hyping the heck out of what would otherwise be considered normal niceties.

[KeshLives]

Yes, an irony that hasn't gone unnoticed here or among other communities at large.



This has got to be grade A satire, right?

Have you really not seen any of the dozen+ Titanragingfistbro/Ativan/Etc., troll threads here, specifically on those subjects?

Our mods, meanwhile, are inexistant outside of taking down occasional 200+ page megathreads if they start getting too constructive and/or coordinated in their criticisms.

Oh, the forums isn't really where the difference is. By definition, the forums are full of people who are there to complain.

The difference is in actual behavior in-game, and, frankly, the people who claim that WoW isn't toxic? They would fit right in there, and don't notice the toxicity from there...because they're part of it, and a main part of the source of it. Of course it's not toxic to them. They LIKE that kind of atmosphere, and they enjoy it. To them, that's how they want it all the time. They want to point out other people that they can be superior to. That's heaven to them. They just want to make that the norm in FFXIV.

The only saving grace here is that FFXIV won't allow it past a point. I think the devs main stance against damage meters and the like is that they know that if they were built in, they'd have to spend a lot more time (and money) enforcing the rules against mostly the people who clamored the most for the said damage meters and other similar things.

That way lies madness. No, let's not go there.

[Shurrikhan]

Oh, the forums isn't really where the difference is. By definition, the forums are full of people who are there to complain.

The difference is in actual behavior in-game, and, frankly, the people who claim that WoW isn't toxic? They would fit right in there, and don't notice the toxicity from there...because they're part of it, and a main part of the source of it. Of course it's not toxic to them. They LIKE that kind of atmosphere, and they enjoy it. To them, that's how they want it all the time. They want to point out other people that they can be superior to. That's heaven to them. They just want to make that the norm in FFXIV.

Ngl, that seems like projective xenophobia, and a conclusion hardly tenable if one had played significant amounts of that game.

Your argument here relies on intentionally conflating a term. You fully admit that (a long-time, pragmatic viewpoint on what constitutes) "toxicity" in WOW would be different from toxicity here. Yet you apply the less fitting / stricter definition only in one direction, to the effect of "XIV good; other bad."

Toxicity there, for instance, might include abusing legalities, such as leveraging the letter of the law to corrupt its spirit (to bait, despite and through obvious social breech of social contract yourself, others into making a minor but punishable breech of ToA). It might involve entitlement, such as by wasting everyone else's time in expecting them to carry one through their gross lack of preparation well outside expectable deviation from norms on the mere basis that they chose to use a random matchmaker (and thereby, somehow, specifically to be grouped with that specific person rather than just anyone within reasonable estimates), or --on the opposite extreme-- wasting everyone's time by holding them to an unreasonably standard before making any significant step forward. It might involve harassment as determined through malicious intent, regardless of whether it be spoken, written, emoted, or even just through repeated and conspicuous presence not otherwise reasonably warrantable.

On the other hand, it won't likely include things like giving advice, even if it's sternly worded (since most would reasonably expect you to have equipped more than just your basic single-target combo... by level 40, let alone 90), or to dodge AoEs that were clearly telegraphed more two seconds prior to their actuation. It might not include giving complete tacit powers over to the tank even in content too trivial for that to have any significant advantage on the mere basis that doing otherwise might invoke either communication (since only silence can risk no toxicity, I guess?) or a faux pas.

Would WoW's community then be toxic by WoW's standards (or, the most commonly shared stances upon them)? Some parts of it, probably... which the vast majority of that community wouldn't then be happy with. (They tend not to be happy, either, with systems that give rise to that -- see that community's rough consensus against the most notable consequences of failure being dumped on just 1 in 5 players in any given M+ run due to how keystones work.)

But, so would XIV's community. Probably more so. Granted, that wouldn't then be a comparison wholly fair to XIV, either. You'd need to find some understanding of "toxicity" shared between both ends and compare from that, not tossing frameworks from a "police state's" approach onto a comparatively "anarchical" one in full and with no further context.

If you're to contrast communities on the basis of a shared term of unshared meaning, wouldn't it make more sense to do so only on the basis of the meanings therein that are shared across each community involved in that comparison? Frankly, anything less seems intended, from the start, to generate only skewed results -- rather disingenuous, to say the least.

[Magikazam]

Oh, the forums isn't really where the difference is. By definition, the forums are full of people who are there to complain.

The difference is in actual behavior in-game, and, frankly, the people who claim that WoW isn't toxic? They would fit right in there, and don't notice the toxicity from there...because they're part of it, and a main part of the source of it. Of course it's not toxic to them. They LIKE that kind of atmosphere, and they enjoy it. To them, that's how they want it all the time. They want to point out other people that they can be superior to. That's heaven to them. They just want to make that the norm in FFXIV.

The only saving grace here is that FFXIV won't allow it past a point. I think the devs main stance against damage meters and the like is that they know that if they were built in, they'd have to spend a lot more time (and money) enforcing the rules against mostly the people who clamored the most for the said damage meters and other similar things.

That way lies madness. No, let's not go there.

Nice strawman. While I agree WoW had a more ''toxic'' environment, people also had thicker skin. FFXIV has its own kind of toxicity. The only major difference really is that people will say that you don't know shit and that you're wrong instead of just insulting you directly.

Also im kinda tired of how FFXIV just use WoW has a scapegoat for basically anything, to a point I doubt some people even played WoW and just start assuming those few ultra-toxic outlier behaviors was the normal things.

Hell whenever you critize something about the game people usually play the ''But WoW had this thing but worst'' cards

[Kira619]

Yes, an irony that hasn't gone unnoticed here or among other communities at large.

Oh that's not surprising at all. No community will ever say their community is outright bad. Because too many people tie their identities to the gaming communities they associate with. FFXIV has constantly had a reputation of having a pleasant community. You combine that with the fact that no other MMO cracked even the nomination and it's not surprising that other communities are getting the "my poop smell like roses" moment lol.

I've always put it this way. Did you think folks in the south who endorsed slavery saw themselves as villains? Did you think folks who did not want integration saw themselves as bad? So why in the world should we expect folks who are toxic today to self reflect.
History is constantly repeating itself and has shown that only when generations pass that people reflect and be like "Yoo, that group was messed up."

This has got to be grade A satire, right?

Have you really not seen any of the dozen+ Titanragingfistbro/Ativan/Etc., troll threads here, specifically on those subjects?

Our mods, meanwhile, are inexistant outside of taking down occasional 200+ page megathreads if they start getting too constructive and/or coordinated in their criticisms.

Honestly it's not, I've just never seen those threads. Though right now, I can go to the WoW main general discussion thread and see 4 threads in the last 24 hours dealing with this. So even if it does happen here, it's definitely not as frequent.

[Zebraoracle]

Oh that's not surprising at all. No community will ever say their community is outright bad. Because too many people tie their identities to the gaming communities they associate with. FFXIV has constantly had a reputation of having a pleasant community. You combine that with the fact that no other MMO cracked even the nomination and it's not surprising that other communities are getting the "my poop smell like roses" moment lol.

I've always put it this way. Did you think folks in the south who endorsed slavery saw themselves as villains? Did you think folks who did not want integration saw themselves as bad? So why in the world should we expect folks who are toxic today to self reflect.
History is constantly repeating itself and has shown that only when generations pass that people reflect and be like "Yoo, that group was messed up."

I think you're missing Shurrikhan's point. 14's community is known for its toxic positivity and passive aggressiveness.

Generally, the random person you're going to run into in WoW or 14 is going to be anywhere from pleasant to completely neutral, but whereas when you run into an unpleasant person in WoW you're more likely to run into someone who doesn't care about TOS rules against harassment and is more likely to react aggressively. In 14, the TOS is so strict and punishing that the unpleasant people adopt a more passive aggressive stance where they can still be toxic, just in such a way that they can't easily be hit by the TOS book of judgement. And then you have people that will mad whenever someone tries to offer advice, you have enablers for leeches ("let them play how they want!", "let's just get this done guys ", etc). You have idiotic drama outside of duties with things like stalkers who can't easily be reported because TECHNICALLY they're not breaking any rules, but boy howdy do they constantly make the person they're stalking uncomfortable and upset. At one point the hunt community was EXTREMELY toxic, from people thinking they're entitled to A and S rank marks to groups of mark spawners and train conductors enacting blacklists against people who didn't follow along with the clique, I don't know how it is now but in ShB it was embarrassing how awful that community was.

[Kira619]

I think you're missing Shurrikhan's point. 14's community is known for its toxic positivity and passive aggressiveness.

Generally, the random person you're going to run into in WoW or 14 is going to be anywhere from pleasant to completely neutral, but whereas when you run into an unpleasant person in WoW you're more likely to run into someone who doesn't care about TOS rules against harassment and is more likely to react aggressively. In 14, the TOS is so strict and punishing that the unpleasant people adopt a more passive aggressive stance where they can still be toxic, just in such a way that they can't easily be hit by the TOS book of judgement. And then you have people that will mad whenever someone tries to offer advice, you have enablers for leeches ("let them play how they want!", "let's just get this done guys ", etc). You have idiotic drama outside of duties with things like stalkers who can't easily be reported because TECHNICALLY they're not breaking any rules, but boy howdy do they constantly make the person they're stalking uncomfortable and upset. At one point the hunt community was EXTREMELY toxic, from people thinking they're entitled to A and S rank marks to groups of mark spawners and train conductors enacting blacklists against people who didn't follow along with the clique, I don't know how it is now but in ShB it was embarrassing how awful that community was.

Oh I understood Shurrikhan's point. To clarify, never had I said 14's community was perfect by any means. (The stalking aspect is by far the worst.), but I also figured much of the complaints towards 14 would come from a mindset more suited with WoW. So, it's not surprising that the mindsets that closer aligns with WoW would find 14 to have toxic positivity.


Edit: So very strange, I can't seem to reply anymore cause I reached my maximum posts for the day? So I'll just respond tomorrow.

[Zebraoracle]

Oh I understood Shurrikhan's point. To clarify, never had I said 14's community was perfect by any means. (The stalking aspect is by far the worst.), but I also figured much of the complaints towards 14 would come from a mindset more suited with WoW. So, it's not surprising that the mindsets that closer aligns with WoW would find 14 to have toxic positivity.

Fair enough. But it's not really fair to say "mindsets that closer align with WoW" when there are plenty of 14 players who have never touched WoW and are aware of the toxic undercurrent of 14.

[Midareyukki]

Fair enough. But it's not really fair to say "mindsets that closer align with WoW" when there are plenty of 14 players who have never touched WoW and are aware of the toxic undercurrent of 14.

*raises hand* ^^

Never touched WoW, definitely saw some crap from our community in and outside the game.

Let's not kid ourselves. The community can get pretty bleak. It's not just crappy comments. There are some royal creeps out there, some people actively grief in content, and there's quite a lot of toxicity from people who should be more responsible. It's why we even call them Burger King Crowns.

Sure. We might not even reach the heels of WoW, nor do we want to.

But I already mentioned before. We very likely won't, you know why? Because people are this against that sort of thing, the ToS is really restrictive and because the rest of the game is so fluffy and doesn't push you on being a hardcore raider that this would have A LOT of scrutiny.
Again, I'm all up for cautionary tales, but at some point we need to understand the context we're in. People say "This is how WoW started", but did WoW had a community like ours to begin with? A dev team like ours to begin with?

Besides, we can always put restrictions in place to further protect people who might feel vulnerable to that sort of thing. Either keep the results personal to them and ask them if they want to make things public. That way, people can reveal their results to those with the know-how to analyze them and figure out what to do and where to improve.