What if Support Role was Added to FFXIV?

[Shurrikhan]

Each of AST's six cards has a place in the lore, and they would have to redo all the class quests from 30-50. They can't just remove them. Your other suggestion just reverts them. The seal system is tied to Astrodyne, and only benefits the AST. This is exactly how it needs to be since it is based on RNG, as unlucky draws will not hinder the party's dmg output.

If it hinders the AST's damage even indirectly, it's technically still hurting the party's DPS. It just doesn't hurt the member's individual meters (for all those are worth outside of... contributing to the party's DPS).

Again, encounter design of FFXIV removes the meaningfulness of these abilities, which is a big reason why they have been removed. Their removal has been staggered, and I would say a big part of that is because they wanted them to be meaningful during encounters. Just look at a skill like Repose/Sleep which players have been saying to just delete if skill/button bloat is a problem. They are still here though.

I think this touches on an interesting point, even if a tangential one: The actual design of the support tools matter also in relation to each other; clear-cut tools usable for every instance of some type of situation can easily stiffle the button efficiency or interest of other support tools that would otherwise take a more thematic bend.

Repose/Sleep, for example, could easily be made more interesting and broadly useful as, say, a typal cleanse/purge... if not for Esuna already denigrating all underlined debuffs into "solve by pressing this button." Or, imagine something akin to the old mob TP system, wherein mobs could change behaviors or perform [usually offensive] special abilities via a combination of enmity and TP. Repose/Sleep could be an interesting option by which to delay either.

(Yes, I think a non-dispellable random-target Doom, thereby forming or acting as a heal check, is more interesting in most contexts than a dispellable Doom, which typically manages only to be a check one's ability to look at their party frames after a particular cast and have predetermined which healer cleanses "top" or "bottom".)

This is quite literally what they have already done to healers. They are extremely powerful in FFXIV in terms of their supportive ability. Their downtime is another issue entirely.

1/8th uptime of a 5% raid damage increase, etc. (with only half the supports having any such tools) is "extremely powerful"?

Or, if you want to make the very reasonable case that Divination, modern Cards, and Chain Stratagem are "just rDPS"... do Rescue and Expedient somehow qualify as "extremely powerful"? Because that's all you'd really have left.

[Gemina]

If it hinders the AST's damage even indirectly, it's technically still hurting the party's DPS. It just doesn't hurt the member's individual meters (for all those are worth outside of... contributing to the party's DPS).

You're missing the point. Especially considering that prior to the seal system the cards used to tie directly into the party's damage output. This continued even into ShB when Divination was still dependent on card draws. It wasn't until EW, and Divination was just made a button you press on the 2min CD that this was truly fixed. If you want to nickel and dime AST's personal DMG numbers because they can still get unlucky with the seals drawn for Astrodyne, it isn't going to hold a whole lot of water. There isn't a single encounter in this game that relies on an AST being granted HoM buff in order to clear it.

Repose/Sleep, for example, could easily be made more interesting and broadly useful as, say, a typal cleanse/purge... if not for Esuna already denigrating all underlined debuffs into "solve by pressing this button." Or, imagine something akin to the old mob TP system, wherein mobs could change behaviors or perform [usually offensive] special abilities via a combination of enmity and TP. Repose/Sleep could be an interesting option by which to delay either.

(Yes, I think a non-dispellable random-target Doom, thereby forming or acting as a heal check, is more interesting in most contexts than a dispellable Doom, which typically manages only to be a check of one's ability to check party frames after a particular cast.)

You're talking about changing encounter design in order to make these abilities useful. That is neither here or there. Again, encounter design is based entirely on damage, making such abilities entirely redundant. There is no point sleeping a mob when you can just kill it. Crowd control was a valid reason to have such abilities in mmos like FFXI, wherein adds needed to be slept, and sometimes even kited because they were too powerful to take on alongside the main target. They needed to be controlled. This does not exist in FFXIV.

As for esuna-able Doom, I am not quite sure where you're getting at. A heavy bleed status effect essentially works the same way, and a GCD is required to save a players life. The penalty for failure is a huge loss to rDPS, especially if it's a heavy hitter who is good at their job. I can't even begin to tell you how many times a healer has just left me to die, and then proceeds to DPS instead of focusing on raising myself, or other downed players. Even in a situation of annoyance like CT where players are easily inflected with Disease among all the trash mobs will not dispel it, and it takes the inflicted players 8-10 seconds to catch up to the rest of the group, which could be negated by simply casting Esuna. And you want to make it "more interesting"?

1/8th uptime of a 5% raid damage increase, etc. (with only half the supports having any such tools) is "extremely powerful"?

Or, if you want to make the very reasonable case that Divination, modern Cards, and Chain Stratagem are "just rDPS"... do Rescue and Expedient somehow qualify as "extremely powerful"? Because that's all you'd really have left.

Healers have the strongest ability out of all the roles to erase mistakes and prevent death. What's the longest you've been down before a healer or DPS with rez raised you? 10 seconds? 20 seconds? Half a minute or more? Have you ever been rescued where you would have died otherwise? Are you familiar with your own DPS? If so, I shouldn't have to explain or spell out how much damage is lost every, single, second you are down. If you ever played a racing game, and just take your finger off the accelerator that is essentially the same thing when you die in this game.

Do you still want to question the supportive ability of the game's healers, or should I continue to elaborate?

[Shurrikhan]

You're talking about changing encounter design in order to make these abilities useful.

Sure (though primarily through easily spread undermechanics). Why not? Encounter design, at present, can be unnecessarily restricted and thereby dull.

Moreover, content design and kit design are equal partners in any feedback cycle; content won't have any more to it than what a kit can leverage, and a kit have any more to it than what content allows to the kit feature.

If either is shallowed out until doldrum, though, that doesn't necessitate that the other be, too. And even when both are so shallowed, both ought then to just be reinvigorated together, so long as that state would be seen as better for the game.

That is neither here or there. Again, encounter design is based entirely on damage, making such abilities entirely redundant.

Not letting a game spiral into needless reductions is always here, there, and everywhere. There's a difference between noting what support functions were mere bloat or smoke and mirrors and refusing the whole concept wholesale on the basis that it wouldn't fit the current (more than arguably already problematic) context.

Healers have the strongest ability out of all the roles to erase mistakes and prevent death.

So you're arguing that healers specifically also have "extremely powerful... supportive abilities" just because their healing is strong... in a thread that explicitly differentiates "Support" tools apart from mere healing, and as a reply to a post that likewise clearly separated "healing" from "Support" functionality?

I can't tell if you're just really not reading the room or are making a purposeful conflation in order to move goalposts here...

[Gemina]

Sure (though primarily through easily spread undermechanics). Why not? Encounter design, at present, can be unnecessarily restricted and thereby dull.

Simple. It's not the direction the game has gone or is going. If you find encounter design dull, hackneyed, or boring; it is not a feeling that is shared across the entire playerbase. You talk about reinvigorating the game, but what exactly is and needs to be invigorated? Most people seem to want to revert FFXIV back to a state it was in. That's not reinvigorating. That's reviving/reverting. Trust me, I know all about how this issue is felt all over the gaming industry. Not just FFXIV. Many echo your thoughts, and I am not dismissing them. My indifference comes from a mindset that recognizes how impossible it is to make an entire mmo community happy, yet still putting in considerable effort to do so anyway.

So you're arguing that healers specifically also have "extremely powerful... supportive abilities" just because their healing is strong... in a thread that explicitly differentiates "Support" tools apart from mere healing, and as a reply to a conversation that likewise clearly separated "healing" from "Support" functionality?

I can't tell if you're just really not reading the room or are making an purposeful conflation in order to move goalposts here...

I wasn't arguing about how powerful healers are. That would be you. I didn't move any goalposts. I merely elaborated my point since you forced me to defend it. Do you have a problem with that?

I did, at 130+ ms ping and frequent packet loss. Bunny medium, very rarely. Bunny Medium maybe once per few hours of raiding, under lag spikes.

Congratulations.

[Shurrikhan]

Simple. It's not the direction the game has gone or is going. If you find encounter design dull, hackneyed, or boring; it is not a feeling that is shared across the entire playerbase.

Neither is your love for the present state of healing. Admittedly, we're therefore probably not going to see eye to eye on much that surrounds it.

Alas, this is about support tools anyways. The person you initially quoted asked for healers to have more of them (the intersection here), to which you responded that the addition was already made (despite its only ever having being reduced since Stormblood)... because healing. (?)

You talk about reinvigorating the game, but what exactly is and needs to be invigorated? Most people seem to want to revert FFXIV back to a state it was in.

Which is it, then? Do you want my opinion, or that of some ambiguous camp of "others"?

Many echo your thoughts, and I am not dismissing them. My indifference comes from a mindset that recognizes how impossible it is to make an entire mmo community happy, yet still putting in considerable effort to do so anyway.

You realize, though, that conflating critiques necessarily with some fatalistic extreme of "the MMO community is utterly unappeasable"... is dismissive, right?

I'm not asking to appease the entire MMO community at large across its every game. I'm noting that when development reduces things to its least common denominator alone, by taking the easy way time after time (repeatedly pulling the plug on an area of design instead of rectifying the particular issues behind some given attempt), the result is more often barren than polished.

I wasn't arguing about how powerful healers are. That would be you.

I haven't argued anything to do with the power of healers. My focus has been solely on gameplay, specifically in what can be done with/around Support tools.

[Gemina]

Neither is your love for the present state of healing. Admittedly, we're therefore probably not going to see eye to eye on much that surrounds it.

Alas, this is about support tools anyways. The person you initially quoted asked for healers to have more of them (the intersection here), to which you responded that the addition was already made (despite its only ever having being reduced since Stormblood)... because healing. (?)


Which is it, then? Do you want my opinion, or that of some ambiguous camp of "others"?


You realize, though, that conflating critiques necessarily with some fatalistic extreme of "the MMO community is utterly unappeasable"... is dismissive, right?

I'm not asking to appease the entire MMO community at large across its every game. I'm noting that when development reduces things to its least common denominator alone, by taking the easy way time after time (repeatedly pulling the plug on an area of design instead of rectifying the particular issues behind some given attempt), the result is more often barren than polished.


I haven't argued anything to do with the power of healers. My focus has been solely on gameplay, specifically in what can be done with/around Support tools.

Look, if your stance is to just say the opposite of my own statements, then not only will we never see eye to eye, the conversation was already over before it even began. If you are willing to lessen the thickness of your skull, and actually try to see where my views are coming from, then I will be happy to have a normal adult conversation with you about FFXIV, and the state of support in the game. If you think your focus has been anything other than to undermine my own statements, and regurgitate the echoes of the chamber, you are extremely misled.

Try to enjoy the game in the meantime.

[Shurrikhan]

Look, if your stance is to just say the opposite of my own statements.

My stance is that healer gameplay is not presently in a good state, that healers would be more interesting if they could make better use of downtime, and that their "Support" skills (as this thread and most players use the term) are insignificant and therefore could be a lucrative means of raising Healers' skill ceiling/cognitive load, apm, and possibly variety in use of downtime. If that happens to run the opposite of your own statements... woe is you, I guess?

Perhaps one could theoretically arrive at mostly good takes just by going the opposite direction of yours(?), but, as much as it might shock you, my position has formed independently of your own. That I corrected your blatant conflating of terms ("support" vs. healing done... on a healer) whose differences are essential to the thread at hand, does not make my every opinion here dependent on yours.

If you think your focus has been anything other than to undermine my own statements, and regurgitate the echoes of the chamber, you are extremely misled.

That people may disagree with your takes, or your purposeful changing of definitions / ignoring of contexts seemingly to suit an agenda, does not make them part of an unthinking-yet-conspiratorial echo chamber.

[R041]

If you find encounter design dull, hackneyed, or boring; it is not a feeling that is shared across the entire playerbase.

[Raven2014]

snip

Dude, you seriously need to stop doing this. If you want to argue with someone, do so in good faith.

If you disagree about it, you can counter it with your own word.

But if you disagree but can't be arsed to put it in words ... just ignore it. I have done so many times.

But you keep posting these annoying large pic/gif meme ... Aside from being disrespectful, it also came across childish as well, and you have done this a lot of time. Tbh this is the main reason I had decided I would not have a discussion/debate/argument with you anymore. But I still feel obligate to point this behavior to you even though I'm not the recipient of it.

But hey, maybe that's just me, if so feel free to just laugh and move on.

[R041]

Dude, you seriously need to stop doing this. If you want to argue with someone, do so in good faith.
If you disagree about it, you can counter it with your own word.

I do - Pretty often? Check my post history.

I don't care if I come off as 'childish', what are you the XIV gatekeeper? We're on a video game forum about cat girls with a fake housing crisis. At least when I meme it's pretty obvious, unlike most people that just say random shit just to argue and piss people off. lol

It's like you didn't even read the thread, you just post and my meme is the only thing that caught your eye.