stop take the skills in lower level content.

[Avoidy]

It's so bad that most people I know will straight up beg people to come with them for Leveling roulette so they can use the "limited leveling roulette" option. The ones who don't, will always complain anyway when they inevitably get Halatali or something, because you only have like 2 buttons to press for 12 minutes. I've yet to meet anyone in game face to face who actually likes getting synced down. This thread's been weird as hell because all these people who, I guess, love mashing 1-2 over and over again are defending this garbage and pretending like people who want to actually enjoy the game are the ones in the minority. They are right to expect that SE will never change this system, though. They're simply too lazy, and doing so would probably piss off the types of people who take off their gear when they queue alliance roulette. They're not really here to play video games; they just want to get their tomes fast while watching netflix on their second monitor, and they view actually playing their job as "too much work" lmao. Can't anger them; how would our game survive without people who hate playing it?

All you can do is find 3 other people to do limited leveling roulette with, or just avoid roulettes in general since they're heavily weighted towards early game snoozefests thanks to the free trial. If you want higher leveled stuff, just do what I do and queue it directly. Then watch these people who only care about tomefarming stomp their feet and eat the 30 minute penalty because they don't want to do Orbonne, or they wanted Ifrit (ARR) from their trial roulette, or blablabla. I don't understand why these people don't just do hunt trains for their tomes tbh

[Atelier-Bagur]

It's so bad that most people I know will straight up beg people to come with them for Leveling roulette so they can use the "limited leveling roulette" option. The ones who don't, will always complain anyway when they inevitably get Halatali or something, because you only have like 2 buttons to press for 12 minutes. I've yet to meet anyone in game face to face who actually likes getting synced down. This thread's been weird as hell because all these people who, I guess, love mashing 1-2 over and over again are defending this garbage and pretending like people who want to actually enjoy the game are the ones in the minority. They are right to expect that SE will never change this system, though. They're simply too lazy, and doing so would probably piss off the types of people who take off their gear when they queue alliance roulette. They're not really here to play video games; they just want to get their tomes fast while watching netflix on their second monitor, and they view actually playing their job as "too much work" lmao.

All you can do is find 3 other people to do limited leveling roulette with, or just avoid roulettes in general since they're heavily weighted towards early game garbage thanks to the free trial.

I dont think its the matter of "liking" being level down. None of us do once we unlock more abilities. Its just the matter of accepting the system for what its trying to do for the sake of lower leveled players to feel like theyre still evenly contributing in the content. I'm sure there's a preferable solution somewhere to allow both parties to feel satisfied but atm its complicated and devs have other priorities to work on

I still feel like the best solution is to do an overhaul of the job's abilities system to have the core rotation be available right before the first dungeon, scale up dungeon mobs to accomodate the increased power in abilities and call it a day

[Mikey_R]

I still feel like the best solution is to do an overhaul of the job's abilities system to have the core rotation be available right before the first dungeon, scale up dungeon mobs to accomodate the increased power in abilities and call it a day

Whilst it is a nice idea, what would you class as the 'core rotation'. Take Dragoon for example. Is it the 5 GCD combo? LotD and everything associated with it? From there, how many actions do you want someone to be juggling in their first dungeon? Currently, DRG has 5 actions they can use in Sastasha, including the level 18. Even back in ARR, it wasn't much higher than that, IIRC, just add Heavy Thrust and Leg Sweep, so we are looking at 7. Just DRG's 5 GCD combos takes up 7 actions on their own and jumps and BotD haven't even been taken into account even at a bare minimum.

Granted, we could extend this and say, they have their core rotation by level 50, give a bit of wiggle room. That is 22 separate hotbar slots filled. So, for the rest of the 40 levels, and this is going to be a matter of opinion, all you will be getting is action upgrades. So, you will effectively be doing the same rotation for 40 levels with the odd animation change here and there. Is that really going to feel exciting? Half the time, looking forward to something new to press in your rotation is the exciting thing, at least, in my opinion. How does this new action change things. It is one of the reasons I felt so disappointed with Monk going into SB and ShB as, Monk never really got anything that changes what you have to do. There was some AoE improvement with Enlightenment and FPF in ShB, but that was about it. PLD was close to being disappointing in EW as it was basically just upgrading existing actions (the blade combo is basically an upgraded Goring Blade combo after all), however, the usefulness of what it got made up for it (where Monk didn't have that).

With everything said, I personally don't believe giving every job a weaker level 90 rotation at an earlier level is going to solve any issues and infact, make levelling less exciting. As I have said, this is my opinion and you are free to disagree, I can see this being quite a divisive topic.

[Jeeqbit]

last part is just not correct at all. low level dungeons skills are not what you got when this dungeons was new at all.

Mostly they are. Fluff abilities were removed like stuns, abilities you use at 20% health, parry buffs, protect, maintaining things such as Blood of the Dragon, but they have kept GCDs mostly. For a paladin for example, you still use Rage of Halone in ARR. On a bard, you still use Heavy shot with Straight Shot procs and maintain your dots. Monk still has all their combos that they actually used. Other than a slight aoe change, Black Mage does too. Dragoon has only had pointless or clunky abilities removed, and clunky or pointless GCDs removed.

They are easier to play (less consequences, less positionals, less fluff like parry and evasion buffs) and so on, but what I mean is, the higher level parts of the rotation are removed when syncing and that still gives you more of a sense of how the job used to play and some people actually want that when experiencing old content.

[Allegor]

Just give everyone, even healers, an aoe skill as early as Halatali. Problem mostly solved.

[Avoidy]

I dont think its the matter of "liking" being level down. None of us do once we unlock more abilities. Its just the matter of accepting the system for what its trying to do for the sake of lower leveled players to feel like theyre still evenly contributing in the content. I'm sure there's a preferable solution somewhere to allow both parties to feel satisfied but atm its complicated and devs have other priorities to work on

I still feel like the best solution is to do an overhaul of the job's abilities system to have the core rotation be available right before the first dungeon, scale up dungeon mobs to accomodate the increased power in abilities and call it a day

I've seen this topic brought up before, and watched people literally say that they'd rather press 2 buttons than perform their kit. There's a sizeable base that genuinely enjoys having their kit gutted because it means they don't have to think as hard when they do their dailies, and I feel like those people are over-represented here.
Realistically though, I agree with what Allegor just said. If they legit can't address this issue at all, at least give everyone an aoe skill early on. Hell, maybe look into a job's future and find some QoL skills and implement them earlier too. I think that might be the best "middle" way to address this problem.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Whilst it is a nice idea, what would you class as the 'core rotation'. Take Dragoon for example. Is it the 5 GCD combo? LotD and everything associated with it? From there, how many actions do you want someone to be juggling in their first dungeon? Currently, DRG has 5 actions they can use in Sastasha, including the level 18. Even back in ARR, it wasn't much higher than that, IIRC, just add Heavy Thrust and Leg Sweep, so we are looking at 7. Just DRG's 5 GCD combos takes up 7 actions on their own and jumps and BotD haven't even been taken into account even at a bare minimum.

Granted, we could extend this and say, they have their core rotation by level 50, give a bit of wiggle room. That is 22 separate hotbar slots filled. So, for the rest of the 40 levels, and this is going to be a matter of opinion, all you will be getting is action upgrades. So, you will effectively be doing the same rotation for 40 levels with the odd animation change here and there. Is that really going to feel exciting? Half the time, looking forward to something new to press in your rotation is the exciting thing, at least, in my opinion. How does this new action change things. It is one of the reasons I felt so disappointed with Monk going into SB and ShB as, Monk never really got anything that changes what you have to do. There was some AoE improvement with Enlightenment and FPF in ShB, but that was about it. PLD was close to being disappointing in EW as it was basically just upgrading existing actions (the blade combo is basically an upgraded Goring Blade combo after all), however, the usefulness of what it got made up for it (where Monk didn't have that).

With everything said, I personally don't believe giving every job a weaker level 90 rotation at an earlier level is going to solve any issues and infact, make levelling less exciting. As I have said, this is my opinion and you are free to disagree, I can see this being quite a divisive topic.

Good question, I suppose just anything that deals with that job's gauge such as white mages having access to their lilies or Paladins having access to their magic (then again we still dont know what their rework will entail). Its honestly a hard topic to cover since there's lots of factors that can affect whats generally considered a good compromise

[Striker44]

Both ARR-HW had far more interaction with their mobs, party, and environment than they do now in those same tiers. It is not even remotely the same experience.

SE does not know how to properly cater to both low level play and high level, so one of them ends up suffering in some form.

That's because in ARR and HW, the max level was only 50/60, so you were significantly "farther" into the game at, say, level 30 then you are now. They've added major xp boosting items and the like such that those earlier levels absolutely fly by now, and you're reaching the higher levels at about the same actual amount of playtime that you were reaching those "lower" levels 6-8 years ago.

SE hits the nail right on the head when it comes to designing content for both low-level play and high-level play. When you play low-level content, you get the low-level abilities. When you play high-level content, you get the high-level abilities. Simple as that. You just don't like it.

[R041]

...

MSQ still takes a significant amount of time, and is much longer than ARR-HW ever was. But that's really beside the point so I don't know why you even brought that up in response to my post.

The talking point is the fact that we have to keep going back to level 15-60 dungeons and the skills and level of play have dwindled from them over time. You do understand that we're comparing an older more interactive ARR-HW experience, with us having to now go back to it but it's effectively dumbed down and Class Content removed? That is the subject of this thread.

Nobody here is talking about exp. The fact that there's a Free Trial to Lv60 means we're forever doomed to roulette this content that has been destroyed and continues to streamline itself.

[kevin_satron]

imo, i think we should have all skills available at lv 70, and the rest are just traits that can changes a lot of gameplay and rotations