Why do the devs hate MCH so much?

[Deceptus]

MCH as a selfish dps, that provides no utility, should be up there with samurai and blackmage but MCH was always at the bottom for whatever reason, the devs always gave in after people screamed and begged for more damage adjustments but it is never enough to make MCH any good.

The sad truth is that you at your very best as a MCH are as good as an average samurai or blackmage or in fact every other melee. So it is no wonder why nobody picks this job and people get even kicked out of groups for playing MCH. Cause even if you play like a god you can't beat a average player of the melee jobs and for them people rather take a dancer with them to increase their damage.

I 100% share this opinion. They're a "selfish" DPS and should be in the same DPS group as the other "Selfish" DPS.

Just a minor thing, but maybe should take Physick out of the equation because is useless in almost any type of situation. Even still, Rez + personal shield + party wide hot + strong single target proc heal is a lot of utility.

They absolutely should, it should trait into something else (radiant aegis possibly?)

Tying a utility into the battery gauge makes it heavily unreliable. The MCH would have to choose between actually using the Queen to do damage, or holding out on it just in case. You either lose damage or lose the utility, and we all know damage is king in this game.

Putting a long enough CD on Queen would fix that, or making another battery spender worth using at 50% gauge (an aoe for trash pulls or something) would also work.

[Raven2014]

First and foremost, you need to understand people have a terrible propensity of slapping "uptime" on something when nothing really changes.

First, a few thing:

As someone who raid on 4 char:

- A healer since 2.0.
- A SMN from the start of this Expansion, in PF
- A BRD since HW (I cleared Omega as a BRD)
- A DRG since SB.

Only the healer char is a static, all others are PF char.

So why am I mentioning all this? Because it feels half of your post seem to assume I'm "ignorant" of what the terms and reality of the game, or that I'm making my points based of 2nd-handed information. And my "real experience" in game say that your approach to this argument seem to fudge over a lot of detail, or try to assert a warp-ed view by inserting just a small grain of truth. Starting with the above. I have seen (and do) enough melee uptime strat that knowing they're a real thing and not simply just a label. I also think you hold too much of a prejudice against PF adaption strategy.


Sometime the strat is a result of solving a puzzle and with it come out a simply better strat to accommodate melee with no down side. In my experience PF has no issue to eventually adopt it. Literally half of the PF I'm in these day are using the Ruby 5 uptime strat. But also there are time where a melee uptime strat will introduce a significant risk to the party (like the uptime for P6S), this is what PF tend to reject. In my experience, which strat adapted in PF as mainstream only come down to safety-ease of execution, aka a smooth brain experience.

Even in fights where uptime is a concern and adjustments are made in favor of the Melee. That doesn't justify 600+ more rDPS. You openly admit Black Mage is among the most complex jobs in the game. Guess what?

And guess why that has become an issue this tier in particular? While range still have to pay a range tax, the hitbox size of this tier basically nullify any levelarge range have over melee. Range class has always been behind melee, that itself is not a problem. The issue this is the margin and also how consistent across the board it is this tier. This is the first time I see it happen so I will see if the situation get fixed next tier. The dev already they would, and I will defer my judgment instead of making an uninformed conclusion atm.

This is a terrible argument because you're trying to justify a massive mobility tax over two casts Summoner is never once hindered by.

Not my experience as playing SMN. Maybe I'm not just that good as SMN, I'm only a mid 80th percentile SMN. What I can say though, out of the 3 DPS class that I play often, DRG took the cake in term of difficulty.

But before I move on I would have to ask, what statistic we're using as the base line of the argument here. As a statistician by trade I know it when someone fudging and switching around different stat to make the argument more convenience, and that's exactly what are you doing here.

Are we talking about percentile rank, which I consider a metric for class mastery.
Are we talking about raw damage output, which I consider a metric for class prowness.

Yes, they are related in someway, but the context they're used and compared must be clear to present a fair argument.

In my own experience, range has a much lower mastery level. As long as I have knowledge of the fight, I have no problem coming in on a range class and do well with it. In fact, I usually tell people I know that whenever I play BRD/SMN, it's so chill and relax that I feel like I'm missing something or doing something wrong. Again, not that I play amazing or anything, but I can still casually mid 80th on SMN and low 90th on BRD, but the point stand.

When I play DRG though? Hustle up and burst your ass, and even then I still gonna suck ... most of the time. Not only in term of output, but it usually take me while to not messing up the fight mechanic itself due to putting too much focus on my own rotation, an issue I never have playing a range class.

The last few years I had also play with a very competitive melee. He's the type who can regularly be in the 95th+ percentile with a few 99, 100 here andthere just doing weekly clear and not even optimize run. And seeing the shit he pulls to play at that level, I don't have the nerve to attempt as a melee, and not even an option I have to consider while playing a range class.

... this doesn't even make sense to what I'm saying and is little more than a strawman. If the mobility tax is removed, then jobs would be balanced around their contribution and nothing else. Bard and Dancer would still be the lowest because they have more utility. Machinist would actually get to exist since it wouldn't be weighed down in a role they can't balance. And no, it doesn't need to do Samurai damage. Just maybe enough so if that Samurai forgets what positionals are it can pull ahead.

And this is the crutch of the problem. You're lumping BRD/DNC/BLM/MCH into one single package. But for me:

- BLM losing their crown is a fight design problem. They still pay tax but their main competitor (melee) are now tax free.
- MCH has always been shit, but they have an identity problem, until SE decide settle into what they want MCH to be, it still gonna shit. The range tax is something that exaggerate its issue, but that's not the main cause.
- BRD/DNC has a "SUPPORT" issue. They don't suck because they are range, they suck because they're the designated "support" classes in a game where the design have forgo such role all but in name.

[Zebraoracle]

*stares at ability to make pure support builds in Guild Wars 1*
*stares at my support mesmer that focused on preventing enemies from using skills*
*stares at my support necromancer build that focused on providing passive hp regen and massive energy (mp) regen so the party didn't have to worry about resource management*
*stares at 14's rigid game design that doesn't really allow for any real support role*
*cries*

Sometimes I really wish I could talk to the 14 devs, with no language barrier at all, and be like "why?"

[WiccaP]

*stares at ability to make pure support builds in Guild Wars 1*
*stares at my support mesmer that focused on preventing enemies from using skills*
*stares at my support necromancer build that focused on providing passive hp regen and massive energy (mp) regen so the party didn't have to worry about resource management*
*stares at 14's rigid game design that doesn't really allow for any real support role*
*cries*

Sometimes I really wish I could talk to the 14 devs, with no language barrier at all, and be like "why?"

Not to mention the Devs apparent hatred of pet classes, which mch was originally in a sense. They can be done well. *points to GW 1&2, WoW* They stripped away the turret, carbuncle and fairies to absolutely nothing. It seems like the devs are so focused on creating "something" new, instead of taking what works and adjusting it to stay true to what it is while still making it feel and look good. The best metaphor I can use is. They are trying to reinvent the wheel in terms of job function. We dont need a new wheel, it was fine, just make it shiny and fun. They are so intent on making the skill floor so low to reach a much larger broad casual base, that they are alienating their other players by lowering the ceiling as well. And to be honest the casual players will come and go and only play for a few weeks or a cpl months here or there. IMO they have started walking a razor edge between casual players who may or may not stay around and their dedicated playerbase that has supported them for years. And I feel they are slipping and will start losing a lot of dedicated players if they dont adjust their perspective. It almost feels like they've lost sight of what the game was and why it drew so many people in in the first place.
Also, I dont know where they got the notion that having all the jobs in a category play the same was a good idea, but I dont want Warrior and Dark knight to feel like Im playing the same thing with a different weapon. I dont want MCH to play like Bard/DNC.

[Zebraoracle]

Not to mention the Devs apparent hatred of pet classes, which mch was originally in a sense. They can be done well. *points to GW 1&2, WoW* They stripped away the turret, carbuncle and fairies to absolutely nothing. It seems like the devs are so focused on creating "something" new, instead of taking what works and adjusting it to stay true to what it is while still making it feel and look good. The best metaphor I can use is. They are trying to reinvent the wheel in terms of job function. We dont need a new wheel, it was fine, just make it shiny and fun. They are so intent on making the skill floor so low to reach a much larger broad casual base, that they are alienating their other players by lowering the ceiling as well. And to be honest the casual players will come and go and only play for a few weeks or a cpl months here or there. IMO they have started walking a razor edge between casual players who may or may not stay around and their dedicated playerbase that has supported them for years. And I feel they are slipping and will start losing a lot of dedicated players if they dont adjust their perspective. It almost feels like they've lost sight of what the game was and why it drew so many people in in the first place.
Also, I dont know where they got the notion that having all the jobs in a category play the same was a good idea, but I dont want Warrior and Dark knight to feel like Im playing the same thing with a different weapon. I dont want MCH to play like Bard/DNC.

Over the course of ShB and EW, I've actually wondered if YoshiP has lost touch with the game, players, and game direction, actually. Wondered, mind you, not claiming such.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Over the course of ShB and EW, I've actually wondered if YoshiP has lost touch with the game, players, and game direction, actually. Wondered, mind you, not claiming such.

Im pretty sure people here feel that Yoshida has severely lost base with how to handle this game and needs to step down. He CLEARLY has no clue how to run an MMO anymore.

[Midareyukki]

Im pretty sure people here feel that Yoshida has severely lost base with how to handle this game and needs to step down. He CLEARLY has no clue how to run an MMO anymore.

Over the course of ShB and EW, I've actually wondered if YoshiP has lost touch with the game, players, and game direction, actually. Wondered, mind you, not claiming such.

My stand is that he knows how to make an MMO, just that he peaked and has since not done so hot in several areas. He's definitely lost base and is lacking in communication and touch with his playerbase, as many of his decisions seem whimsy and questionable. Even when the product is good, sometimes I wonder who realistically asked for it, and why take the extra mile of making something grand out of it (like Island Sanctuary).

It's just that lately there's been a lot of flaws and it's making me question why this is so when back then it wouldn't have been this noticeable. Or at least, a lot of it would be excusable.

[Atelier-Bagur]

My stand is that he knows how to make an MMO, just that he peaked and has since not done so hot in several areas. He's definitely lost base and is lacking in communication and touch with his playerbase, as many of his decisions seem whimsy and questionable. Even when the product is good, sometimes I wonder who realistically asked for it, and why take the extra mile of making something grand out of it (like Island Sanctuary).

It's just that lately there's been a lot of flaws and it's making me question why this is so when back then it wouldn't have been this noticeable. Or at least, a lot of it would be excusable.

I think its disingenous to say that wasnt always the case. Even back then ever since there were always people questioning his decisions for a lot of the content that was introduced in this game. No one ever said "FFXIV is in the best state atm". You will always have people have glaring issues just due to how much dedication and time the average player plays a game.

[Midareyukki]

I think its disingenous to say that wasnt always the case. Even back then ever since there were always people questioning his decisions for a lot of the content that was introduced in this game. No one ever said "FFXIV is in the best state atm". You will always have people have glaring issues just due to how much dedication and time the average player plays a game.

It is. I just know full well how much "damned if you do, damned if you don't" this community is.

Things were never "perfect", but there was definitely more tolerance before. Even when everyone thought things were "the best, no other matched it", it didn't mean their decisions didn't have their detractors. The game's ALWAYS had issues, from Raiding design up to Gordias, class design and even content design like Eureka or Bozja. A lot of things were divisive and controversial.

What I am referring however is the progression between that, where even at its worst the community still held the game with some positive outlook, and now where people look at the game with tenuous trepidation or blind positivity.

You'd have to be an outright fool to deny the list of issues since even before Endwalker's early access. Even when things were dodgy, glitchy, patchy or just overall divisive, they weren't appearing so "one after the other".

I just didn't want to say it like this, because I know I need to walk on eggshells here, or I'll offend the crackheads who care too much about defending the dev team at their flaws, and the people who think all that's said is nothing but negativity.

[Atelier-Bagur]

It is. I just know full well how much "damned if you do, damned if you don't" this community is.

Things were never "perfect", but there was definitely more tolerance before. Even when everyone thought things were "the best, no other matched it", it didn't mean their decisions didn't have their detractors. The game's ALWAYS had issues, from Raiding design up to Gordias, class design and even content design like Eureka or Bozja. A lot of things were divisive and controversial.

What I am referring however is the progression between that, where even at its worst the community still held the game with some positive outlook, and now where people look at the game with tenuous trepidation or blind positivity.

You'd have to be an outright fool to deny the list of issues since even before Endwalker's early access. Even when things were dodgy, glitchy, patchy or just overall divisive, they weren't appearing so "one after the other".

I just didn't want to say it like this, because I know I need to walk on eggshells here, or I'll offend the crackheads who care too much about defending the dev team at their flaws, and the people who think all that's said is nothing but negativity.

It really isnt that much of taboo to state such things with this community. You can check forum's history and its always have been these kind of discussions or hot takes.