Why do the devs hate MCH so much?

[Raikai]

And Raven2014, Id like to know what utility/support mch brings to the party? Tactician? Their one and only buff that can not stack with dancer and bards shield. Your example of SMN, has their carbuncle shields, their phoenix support abilities, rez and physick they have more support/utility than mch. Also with how simplified SMN is now, its almost as mobile as Prang. And while Mch doesnt have to directly get into melee they do have to get just outside of melee range for 3 of their AOEs to hit. The devs pretty much stripped mch of their flavor/identity/and support away.

Just a minor thing, but maybe should take Physick out of the equation because is useless in almost any type of situation. Even still, Rez + personal shield + party wide hot + strong single target proc heal is a lot of utility.

[Raven2014]

And Raven2014, Id like to know what utility/support mch brings to the party? Tactician? Their one and only buff that can not stack with dancer and bards shield. Your example of SMN, has their carbuncle shields, their phoenix support abilities, rez and physick they have more support/utility than mch. Also with how simplified SMN is now, its almost as mobile as Prang. And while Mch doesnt have to directly get into melee they do have to get just outside of melee range for 3 of their AOEs to hit. The devs pretty much stripped mch of their flavor/identity/and support away.

I think you mis-addressed, I wasn't the one who want to to add ultility to MCH. In fact, I'm against it. I only bring up SMN as a parity comparision, but I don't want MCH to get more support ability. I want MCH to stay as a selfish Phys-range-DPS, 'cause that's still a subrole we don't have. The reason I focus on mobility is because if MCH want higher number, they'll need to give something in return, and mobility is about the only thing they have that can be put up for bargaining.

Something like giving MCH a new set of DPS oriented ability like this:

- Encampment: take 3 GCD to set up, the MCH plop down a gun encampment (could be a heavy MG, could be a gatlink, or even an auto cannon, the cooler the better). Once set up, all ability is changed (comestically) to match the regular rotation. The MCH receive a buff (could be potency, could be haste) as long as they use the encampment. Of course, the MCH can't move.

- Decamp: take half a GCD. The MCH abandon (or disassemble) the encampment and resume full mobility, and can attack as normal. The MCH will have to use another 3 GCD to set up if they want to use the encampment again.

- Displace: take half a GCD. Instead of abandon (or dissemble), the MCH try to haul the set up with him/her. In this mode, they suffer the heavy debuff that affects their movement accordingly. They also can not make any attack. However, once in safety, they only need to spend another half GCD to plop down the encampment and start blasting again (instead of 3 full GCD for a full re-setup). This is to encourage the MCH don't just plop the encampment down anywhere, but place it strategically similarly to how BLM would decide to place their leyline.

- Hustle: remove the heavy debuff under Displace mode for 3 seconds, allowing the MCH to move at normal speed while carrying their encampment. Basically a penalty bypass similar to Triple Cast and True North, but come in limited availability and have to be determined when it is best used.


There is, of course a less elaborate way to do this, but the idea is the same: cut down their mobility, give it another strategic/decision making layer to improve output rather than trying to achieve simple parity by just giving the job some random utility "because other classes have it too". If you had read or remember my posts from other thread, I care about class identity and the thematic value of its kit, balance is not just a parity game for the shake of parity to me.

Of course, the math and balance will have to be worked out (again, not my job in case anyone want to ask further). But with this, I think it would be ok to let MCH's number to catch up to SAM, at least in fights without a lot of large/frequent movement, while in a fight that do, of course the melee should have the advantage.

[WiccaP]

I think you mis-addressed, I wasn't the one who want to to add ultility to MCH.

Im well aware of that, I addressed you because you're claiming that mch has to much utility as it is because it is a selfish dps. I just used the two jobs you mentioned as a comparison. MCH has less support/utility than SMN and SMN has become almost as mobile as the range physical category, and has a typically higher Rdps than mch. So the only thing mch actually does better, and only by a slight margin, is mobility. Which you want to sacrifice. To be a better selfish dps, mch would need personal utility, meaning even if you give it only self target abilities and buffs like you mentioned, is still adding utility.

I think you forget that MCH was originally a support job. Its turrets would restore MP/TP depending on which was deployed, a form of party support. They had a knock back, even if it didn't work half the time and they had mitigation. And they could stun, silence, and heavy their target. If you cared about class identity and thematic value you wouldn't argue for a purely selfish dps stand point, because mch wasn't originally designed that way.

The biggest mistake the devs did with mch was gutting the turret system and removing any identity the job had and focusing only on the gun and robot. Now its person doing flips while firing a gun who occasionally summons a robot. Even its core "not gun" abilities like drill, air anchor, and chainsaw are just other versions of their gun. Where's the machinery, the grappling hook jump back, the different turrets that do more than sit out for 10 seconds, the ability to throw up a mechanical ball that splits into pieces like ricochet and creates a shield around the target and nearby allies, the grenade that explodes healing allies within so many yalms, or one that is an aoe damage centered on target.

The queen is supposed to be the mch crown and glory, yet there are no abilities that tie into the battery gauge and there is absolutely no synergy between the heat and battery systems. Why doesnt wildfire also act as an aoe, or why doesnt auto crossbow reset the ogcd of ricochet like heat blast does for Gauss round?

I have mained MCH since HW and I remember MCH before it was the selfish rphys dps. I love the job, its why I still play it even though it is not in a good place and hasnt been since shadowbringers. But by its history, its lore and design, it has always been a support job. If they want to make it the selfish dps, then fine, but it needs abilities, utilities and support to be able to claim that title. Which it clearly doesnt have right now.

[Raven2014]

meaning even if you give it only self target abilities and buffs like you mentioned, is still adding utility.

If that's how you would call it, then it's fine. But the point still stand, I want MCH to have abilities to buff itself - as a selfish DPS rather another party wide ultilioty.

I think you forget that MCH was originally a support job. Its turrets would restore MP/TP depending on which was deployed, a form of party support. They had a knock back, even if it didn't work half the time and they had mitigation. And they could stun, silence, and heavy their target.

Not really, and trust me, I'm one of what probably a handful of person who vocal about MP management, aggro management, more use of cleansing ability. In fact, it wasn't just a month ago that I duke it out with some of the very other posters in this thread. And I was an extremely minority to argue for their usage and have to hold back the majority of people who dismiss those as pointless busy, uncessary things.

If I can interpret your post as someone who appreciate the old system, then you're another person I can add to that group. And right now, the total - including myself - is still a number I can count with one hand. In fact, I used almost the same language your just did when talking about it back then, against fierce resistant I might add.


What you described is not a loss unique to MCH, it is a loss to the game design as a whole with healer and support the 2 roles that suffered the most from it.

If you cared about class identity and thematic value you wouldn't argue for a purely selfish dps stand point, because mch wasn't originally designed that way.

First, because that identity was scrubbed as soon as it appears. Even by SB MCH seems already adopt this image of a gun-slinger style class. Then it seems we're back to a machinist now? But it has been a selfish DPS for much longer than it was a support. Regardless, it has to pick one and go all in. One of the main issue is like I said, it doesn't clearly have a place it wants to be in.


And second, even more so than the healer role, I feel support role is more of deadend. As you had rightfully noted, they had stripped away most things that would traditionally constitute the support role. And whatever role is left are also spread around half of the remaining jobs. Buffing damage? lots of class can do that. Mitigation? That's something literally almost every jobs can do. So ... what is a support class in FF14 these day anyway? Tank is a tank because only them can tank, healer is a healer because you'll need at least one of them for the party not to die to damage ... but support ... what exactly is it they do that the rest of the party can't do?

These day, hearing SE say "we gonna make this a support class" is literally synonym to "we gonna make you suck". Like, looking at the kit, I personally would think RDM actually is a stronger support than any of the current support. But because it's not classified as an official support job, it's allowed to suck less.

IMO, the only way to make Support as a viable role will require 2 things:

- Revive the traditional support system that had been tripping away since Stormblood.
- Stop the conflation where every role do a bit of what should be the job of another role.

Otherwise, the support crown is basically just a king with no clothe.

I had put forward a radical ideal in the past, I don't know if you had see it, but I include here as a reference for where I stand on the issue

Frankly, my problem is not really about healing itself, but more about role indentity. Right now there are so much conflation between roles that it both make it a balancing nightmare and a messy ball of unclear purpose. The Green DPS issue is merely the poster child of the issue, but hardly the only issue. My solution, in full, is actually very radical:

- Take away all party wide buff from DPS. Make them all selfish DPS. They're in charge of their own optimization and no one else. Also, remove stuff like fient and addle.

- Tank should only be in charge of personal defensive cool down, and maybe debuff the boss. They should not be double up duty to party wide mitigation.

- Support classes (p.range) should have the exclusive job as buffing the party, they should be the only one with party wide buffs.

- Remove majority if not all but the most basic self healing (i.e second wind) from all classes.

- Healers should be exclusive in charge of healing and raid wide mitigation.


I feel this way you can amp up the complexity and difficulty for each "role" that is unique to them. Instead of this melting pots "everyone does everything just some better than the others with DPS the only true go to".

As you can see, my previous example of the change to MCH is inline with this.

[Shurrikhan]

There is, of course a less elaborate way to do this, but the idea is the same: cut down their mobility, give it another strategic/decision making layer to improve output rather than trying to achieve simple parity by just giving the job some random utility "because other classes have it too".

I'd love this.

In spirit, at least, examples look fun, too -- if a bit overly button-elaborate.

In terms of the (highly tentative) details, I might prefer to be able to just leave the gun emplacement in there, and would probably rather it be a flexible CD (Battery spender, for instance) than up all the time, etc., but that's just... details. We're nowhere close to that yet. Sounds good so far!

[TheMightyMollusk]

I think you mis-addressed, I wasn't the one who want to to add ultility to MCH. In fact, I'm against it. I only bring up SMN as a parity comparision, but I don't want MCH to get more support ability. I want MCH to stay as a selfish Phys-range-DPS, 'cause that's still a subrole we don't have. The reason I focus on mobility is because if MCH want higher number, they'll need to give something in return, and mobility is about the only thing they have that can be put up for bargaining.

Right now, MCH has the same mobility as the other ranged jobs (arguably less, as they have no mobility skills), no utility to speak of, AND lower damage, both personal and raid. Why do they have to "give up" anything just to be brought up to par?

[Maltothoris]

Here was the whole thing about the whole hitboxes.

From the digest we got

Something we've been hearing a lot about from our players, and have also noticed within the development team, is how ranged DPS jobs (both physical and magical) have lost some of their advantages ever since 5.x, which introduced enemies with large target circles and reduced downtime for melee DPS jobs. As such, we're also looking to balance ranged DPS jobs based on how they compare to melee DPS jobs. Do note, however, that this doesn't necessarily entail adjustments for all ranged DPS jobs, as some have powerful party support effects.

And from the ffxiv reddit discord we got

Y "We increased the hit box sizes so Melee could be hitting the boss without any loss, but by doing that now the balance between Ranged and Melee is off"

So as mentioned before, the buffs in patch 6.28 were their temporary remedy at the moment. Hasn't completely gone by the wayside as we've seen with Criterion Dungeon and Criterion Dungeon (Savage) but the recent raid tier does show far they with go, epseically with the face that in limitless desolation there are no tower spawns in the last round.

[Lieri]

Mch:
- Need low ping to play optimally
- Rdps that doesnt buff raid dps
- Mediocre individual damage

Its core design is flawed. Need a massive rework. Too reliant on latency and by the end of the day its mediocre as a dps.

[Zebraoracle]

*stares at ability to make pure support builds in Guild Wars 1*
*stares at my support mesmer that focused on preventing enemies from using skills*
*stares at my support necromancer build that focused on providing passive hp regen and massive energy (mp) regen so the party didn't have to worry about resource management*
*stares at 14's rigid game design that doesn't really allow for any real support role*
*cries*

Sometimes I really wish I could talk to the 14 devs, with no language barrier at all, and be like "why?"

[WiccaP]

*stares at ability to make pure support builds in Guild Wars 1*
*stares at my support mesmer that focused on preventing enemies from using skills*
*stares at my support necromancer build that focused on providing passive hp regen and massive energy (mp) regen so the party didn't have to worry about resource management*
*stares at 14's rigid game design that doesn't really allow for any real support role*
*cries*

Sometimes I really wish I could talk to the 14 devs, with no language barrier at all, and be like "why?"

Not to mention the Devs apparent hatred of pet classes, which mch was originally in a sense. They can be done well. *points to GW 1&2, WoW* They stripped away the turret, carbuncle and fairies to absolutely nothing. It seems like the devs are so focused on creating "something" new, instead of taking what works and adjusting it to stay true to what it is while still making it feel and look good. The best metaphor I can use is. They are trying to reinvent the wheel in terms of job function. We dont need a new wheel, it was fine, just make it shiny and fun. They are so intent on making the skill floor so low to reach a much larger broad casual base, that they are alienating their other players by lowering the ceiling as well. And to be honest the casual players will come and go and only play for a few weeks or a cpl months here or there. IMO they have started walking a razor edge between casual players who may or may not stay around and their dedicated playerbase that has supported them for years. And I feel they are slipping and will start losing a lot of dedicated players if they dont adjust their perspective. It almost feels like they've lost sight of what the game was and why it drew so many people in in the first place.
Also, I dont know where they got the notion that having all the jobs in a category play the same was a good idea, but I dont want Warrior and Dark knight to feel like Im playing the same thing with a different weapon. I dont want MCH to play like Bard/DNC.