Playing an expansion as current content has been a lacklustre MMO experience

[Raven2014]

This seems a bizarre take, given how sync has worked in other games, including ones where oGCDs make up a larger portion of the difference between lower- and higher-level kits.

Syncing down a kit isn't a matter of just nerfing the skills that attained between [the lower level] and [the higher level]. At its most basic, you simply multiply the potency of ALL skills within [the higher level]'s kit by the coefficient of the relative-potency-per-minute of [the lower level] over that of [the higher level]. Whether that potency per minute comes from oGCDs or GCDs is irrelevant to that.

Fancy words just to repeat exactly what I said? Conveniently just like the other you left out the more important bit of that post. Let me repeat and emphasize it for you:

- Say the targeted DPS for everyone across the board is 300DPS.
- A lvl25 with only 3 attack abilities will have this 300 total redistribute to just those 3 abilities.
- A lvl90 with 12-15 attack abilities will have that same total redistributed too all of those.

So you have a high level player doing complete rotation while having every single of their ability (GCD or oGCD) significant weaker, while at the same time doing a butt load more work for the same output. That's called punishing. The current system keep a rough parity both in term of output and gameplay, that's why it makes more sense.

It's not as complicated as people think, you don't scale yourself down. You scale everything up to you.

And it's not as simple as you think, scale up has its own set of the problem. Power creep and trivialize gear progression are the two of many, and a low level player will suddenly find themself become significant more powerful when pair up with a high level player, and that's not necessary a good thing. Forgot the names but there have been a few games that use dynamic scaling and most players hate it, 'cause it eliminate the sense of actual progression.

The reason a high level player think that kind of system is "fine" because it benefit them, but that benefit come as detriment to people who new to the games. Between some "minor" inconvenience to the max player (and face it, most even don't run into that often) or destroying the lvling process of new players, it's very clear what should take a much higher priority to preserve.

[Shurrikhan]

Fancy words just to repeat exactly what I said? Conveniently just like the other you left out the more important bit of that post. Let me repeat and emphasize it for you:

- Say the targeted DPS for everyone across the board is 300DPS.
- A lvl25 with only 3 attack abilities will have this 300 total redistribute to just those 3 abilities.
- A lvl90 with 12-15 attack abilities will have that same total redistributed too all of those.

So you have a high level player doing complete rotation while having every single of their ability (GCD or oGCD) significant weaker, while at the same time doing a butt load more work for the same output. That's called punishing.

So is even doing any challenging content, using minimum ilvl when doing synced runs, etc., etc. Or, in less loaded a term, optional challenge.

It is an option to put in more effort so you're not so damn bored. Since anyone likely to use said option would tend to make full use of the full kits they're nerfing their individual skill/AA potencies to be able to use, the result is the same, so you could still do that in matchmaking without it negatively affecting an average run (as if that weren't already subject to the first ego-tripping tank, princess healer, or no-AoEs/CDs DPS one comes across).

And it's not as simple as you think, scale up has its own set of the problem. Power creep and trivialize gear progression are the two of many, and a low level player will suddenly find themself become significant more powerful when pair up with a high level player, and that's not necessary a good thing. Forgot the names but there have been a few games that use dynamic scaling and most players hate it, 'cause it eliminate the sense of actual progression.

The reason a high level player think that kind of system is "fine" because it benefit them, but that benefit come as detriment to people who new to the games. Between some "minor" inconvenience to the max player (and face it, most even don't run into that often) or destroying the lvling process of new players, it's very clear what should take a much higher priority to preserve.

Scaling up, as done in the examples mentioned earlier, has no impact on power creep nor gear progression. Low-level players do not find their power varying based on their party. They simply find their party members' power levels all looking the same as theirs regardless of those members' actual levels relative to their own.

There has also been no impact from level scaling systems on the leveling process of new players except in that their queue times get greatly reduced for/in leveling dungeons.

Too much copying from WoW would be bad for both. Those that like to go back and forth for whatever reason would likely tire of both.

Better netcode? More player-friendly glamour systems? Account-wide store purchases? Avoid at all costs; another MMO might already have those elements of polish/convenience, and we wouldn't want XIV to be any less unique in not having them.

[Raven2014]

So is even doing any challenging content, using minimum ilvl when doing synced runs, etc., etc. Or, in less loaded a term, optional challenge.

It is an option to put in more effort so you're not so damn bored. Since anyone likely to use said option would tend to make full use of the full kits they're nerfing their individual skill/AA potencies to be able to use, the result is the same, so you could still do that in matchmaking without it negatively affecting an average run (as if that weren't already subject to the first ego-tripping tank, princess healer, or no-AoEs/CDs DPS one comes across).

That ... not even the same thing. You always try to reach this much? If you get a group together and "choose" synch, you're doing for yourself. People who try to solo Heaven on High is not punishing themselves, but do it on their volition. Running into low level dungeon in roulette is not a choice of challenge, you're there to help keep the content alive and help the new players out and get a reward for your time. You're not there to challenge yourself.

And cut and put the late edit from previous post here in case you miss it. Here is another example that will make it even more absurd. The issue is not only between low and max level.

- Imagine a lvl25 lancer does a certain damage with the full thrust combo in a lvl25 dungeon.
- Later on, that player made it to a lvl40 DRG and picked up a couple oGCD.
- roulette put him back into the lvl25 dungeon, and now he noticed his full thrust combo now do less damage than it was when he was at 25 to compensate for the new extra attacks he has!?!?


Imagine being the one who has to explain to him that oh you're just being punished for having more abilities now. That will destroy the sense of progression for new players. Bizarre you say? I call it actually think it through. If you can not bring yourself to put up with a 10-12min Satasha and willing to trample a new player experience due to your boredom depsite already being handsomely rewarded for it, then it's you who's acting like a princess.

Years ago you had an authentic lvling experience, the new players deserved to have that too without having it scrambled and muddled to appease to you now that you're at max level. FF14 already provide a crap ton of options for you, being to get tome or EXP on alt, you do not have to run this particular type of content to get whatever you're looking for. If it bores you, don't do it, it won't gate keep you from anything you seek. Stop being selfish and ask for everything to be adjusted to just you and yours.

[Shurrikhan]

That ... not even the same thing. If you get a group together and "choose" synch, you're doing for yourself. People who try to solo Heaven on High is not punishing themselves, but do it on their volition. Running into low level dungeon in roulette is not a choice of challenge, you're there to help keep the content alive and help the new players out and get a reward for your time. You're not there to challenge yourself.

The lower level sees either of two things:

1. The dungeon does the run in X time and another of the same job can only ever have the same animations s/he does.
2. The dungeon does the run in X time and another of the same job might have, despite equal throughput, some animations s/he does not yet have. And queues may shorten due to a higher number of supporting players queuing (especially, those grabbing the materia rewards from doing it at level cap rather than dropping the roulette from their dailies once they have leveled what all jobs they want to level).

What difference does it make to the new player that, among all the animations unknown to them, another player with the same job icon may also have some skills they do not yet know? The speed of the clear is unchanged. Its difficulty, for them, is completely unchanged. On the other hand, with the option to make leveling roulette that much less dull for higher-level players, they may see shortened queue times.

- Imagine a lvl25 lancer does a certain damage with the full thrust combo in a lvl25 dungeon.
- Later on, that player made it to a lvl40 DRG and picked up a couple oGCD.
- roulette put him back into the lvl25 dungeon, and now he noticed his full thrust combo now do less damage than it was when he was at 25 to compensate for the new extra attacks he has!?!?

Yes! Which is fine. Why would someone with far more numerous actions need to individually do equal damage to someone who has fewer actions? It's a choice the higher level can opt into, at zero disruption or difference to anyone else, to make running that content less dull despite ultimately putting out the very same throughput. If it did not crunch their numbers, you'd then have actual disruption to lower level content and forgo more frequent activity and its shorter queues. It's not that hard a concept.

Now I haven't done the exact math. But to make 16 abilities yielding the same output as 3 abilities ... each of the former have to weaker not by two, not by three, and probably will more than by 4 times. Does it make sense for Raiden thrust to be like ... 1/5 the power of True Thurst? Does it make sense for StarDiver to hit significant less than a simple full thurst? And if a lvl90DRG have to use their entire kit to get the same damage as lvl25 rotation, you'll be actively punishing the high level players.

Their relative power is unchanged. Your Full Thrust will still do 64.5% of your Stardiver. Why would you care what the level 26 is hitting for, skill per skill, as long as even under that option you are nonetheless keeping up and now are not as bored and thus more likely to help others with their leveling dungeons through leveling roulette, rather than almost certainly stopping the moment you've finished leveling what jobs you wish to level (i.e., ending as soon as you go from primarily one helped to wholly a helper)?

You seem to have the intent of such changes absolutely backwards, preferring instead a lack of choice and longer queues (fewer 90s queuing) and/or disruption to low-levels' experience (90s keep their full power), on the mere basis that, what, other MMOs do things differently so no matter what player benefits may arise, those differences must be bad?

Level scaling, instead of solely level-capping, works. We have plentiful examples of it working. And it's beneficial, both in itself and in what it does for the value per development hour of content (especially anything not forced in by MSQ) in the long run by re-opening past content into rotation at a rate far greater than the trickle that is the barely-revised "Unreal" dungeons (even allowing for faster revision of said content when it lacks something to interact directly with new portions of player kits by being based on player throughput as it is now and at the participant's level rather than what it was or, often already quite different, what it would be now at that older level cap, given power creep or kit-gutting since).

[Amenara]

I see people speak so fondly of other games and it makes me wonder, what are you even doing here?

I like playing other games too?

[Shurrikhan]

You're going to get a lot of disagreement here because different players focus on different aspects.

I did not find WoW's system enjoyable when it was added while I was still playing WoW. I found it disappointing especially since that level scaling extended to gear item level in some content, not just character level. You never felt like you were progressing and getting ahead of content you had already completed.

So, the system didn't make content obsolete fast enough for your preference (never mind that that you could only end up doing the same content on repeat if you chose to do so)?

The level sync system here gives you frequent reminders of just how far your character has come as the WoL. For someone focused on character progression over job toolkit, that's important. Those level 43 Morbols out in the Sylphlands that were so annoying when you were only level 43-44 yourself are now a trivial enemy, as they should be.

My "reminder of just how far my character has come" is... that 90% of things can now be one-shot (unless they happen to be in a blue minimap circle, in which case they're invulnerable/unattackable until again made no longer so trivial an enemy), such that a mob some 20 times my size can be one-shot while a gnat (despite its being a reused asset of a level 4 mob) cannot so long as the latter is lv90? I don't see how that'd be coherent enough to be a storytelling bonus of any significance.

If they were to be leveled up to the same level as you so they remained just as annoying, what was even the point of continuing to level up? Just to get a couple of extra buttons to press every 30-60 seconds? Big whoopee.

...The point... would be to enjoy playing the game. Not just to have your EXP/Lv/HP/DPS go up.

If the only point of the leveling experience were to cycle what small slice of the content you are arbitrarily restricted to (through opportunity costs and systems of incentives)... you seem to have some very backward priorities. Restricting content and kit is, at best, a way of keeping the game's systems comprehensible and its content queues low at each step. Once the systems are so shallow as to be comprehensible even in a hundredth the time spent leveling and 90% of content obsolete to the average player anyways, those restrictions aren't worth treating as sacrosanct; the focus should only be on the new player experience, but slow-in-acquisition and purposely-restrictive aren't necessarily or even likely good design in that regard.

Each system fills a niche for a certain type of player. Those who like FFXIV's system have gravitated to this game. Those who like WoW's system have gravitated to WoW.

You're compelling a false ultimatum here. You may as well say that anyone who likes an uncapped supply of housing should assume that any other thing they like from XIV, however much they make like banger boss OSTs or a long-reaching story, could never make XIV worth playing for them.

Make this game like WoW and where are players who like the current FFXIV system supposed to go to get what they want? If you like WoW's system better, you have WoW to play.

One can prefer some aspect X of [Game A] while still preferring [Game B] overall... Moreover, one can play both, enjoying both for different reasons.

[Rolder50]

That ... not even the same thing. You always try to reach this much? If you get a group together and "choose" synch, you're doing for yourself. People who try to solo Heaven on High is not punishing themselves, but do it on their volition. Running into low level dungeon in roulette is not a choice of challenge, you're there to help keep the content alive and help the new players out and get a reward for your time. You're not there to challenge yourself.

I don't see the problem with making this alternate kind of sync be an optional little check box when queuing in roulettes. Sure the developer intention for the roulettes is to keep lower level content alive, but that's definitely not why 99% of players do them. Generally people do roulettes for the reward, hence why the developers made them give good XP and tomestone rewards. So why not allow people the OPTION to have a more engaging rotation? Clearly it'd be more effort for the same reward, but some players might prefer that over falling asleep with their 1-2 Sastasha rotation. Heck, maybe we wouldn't have so many complaints from people getting Crystal Tower raids in the Alliance Raid roulette if those people had more engaging rotations to work with...

[Raven2014]

Yes! Which is fine.

No it is not!

Why would someone with far more numerous actions need to individually do equal damage to someone who has fewer actions?

Serious question?

You seem to have the intent of such changes absolutely backwards, preferring instead a lack of choice and longer queues (fewer 90s queuing)

Now you're just inventing problem. The lvling roullete had never have issue with popping, not in the pass, not now, and probably never.


The reason the current system work is because it synch to a specific point. A lvl 25 dungeon synch everything to lvl25, from potency, gameplay, gear stat while still giving the high level play a slight margin advantage. The issue with dyanmic scaling is there is no consistency.

Why would you care what the level 26 is hitting for, skill per skill, as long as even under that option you are nonetheless keeping up and now are not as bored and thus more likely to help others with their leveling dungeons through leveling roulette

If you haven't made out why would I care after I had said that much, I don't think I can say anything more that would make you understand. Bored? Unlike you, I don't play something bored me so it's a non-issue for me . Whenever I queue into a low level dungeon I just chill. I don't even comment on how the new players playing in those dungeon. Tank doing single pull? Healer don't DPS? DPS not AOE? No problemnemo. If those issue pop up in lvl70+ I may make suggestion to the players in question, but the early dungeon ... yeah, just chill and relax. And that include not making 10-15min run as if it's an endourous experience. I'm playing a game, and even if it's not the most excitement part of the game it's not like I'm visiting a dentist to have my teeth pulled.


Edit: also imagine being a lvl15 new player queued into Satasha, and see a DRG Stardive the boss following a SMN Arkmoning with Bahamut ...

[Rolder50]

Edit: also imagine being a lvl15 new player queued into Satasha, and see a DRG Stardive the boss following a SMN Arkmoning with Bahamut ...

If I was a new player and saw someone else use fancy high level abilities like that, my first thought would be "Wow that was cool! How/when do i get something like that?" So I don't see how this is a problem.

[Annana]

Having recently leveled through WoW dungeons, scaling to the degree you all are talking about is hot garbage.

At level 15 I was topping DPS meters by mashing two buttons with zero thought. At level 60 I was playing the piano to get out dps'd by the tank.

It felt like I was getting weaker every level, and that's the exact opposite of what you want when leveling up.