Playing an expansion as current content has been a lacklustre MMO experience

[Amenara]

They don't even spend that much time in there. Between MSQ and how much XP those dungeons give (2 or 3 levels), players only need to go there once and they move on to the next.

The dungeons aren't the problem, the lack of skills from 1-60 is and the level you learn those skills is. That is my point about the whole thing. You reorganize when you learn skills, you fix the problem with having none of your kit when syncing in dungeons.

[Raven2014]

My dude it doesn't matter if you have 35 abilities rotation or only 3 that you use in cycle..... all that matter is the average DPS per ability or the DPS per GCD/ogcd.

No, what matter far more is something that make sense. That a high level attack somehow only a fraction of a fresh ability, or a synch down player have to use 16-18 abilities to get the same output as someone who only use 3 is not how sense is made.

They can simply adjust the potencies or more easily put a DPS cap per DPS per dungeon when running it synced...... Also one of the solution is in your message " if we just look at GCD alone, those 8 abilites on the DRG have to be neft to a point where it will have the same potency as the full thrust rotation. ". Here, you can even figure out a solution

Here, let me additional highlight the more important bit that you convenient left out in my post ...

Now I haven't done the exact math. But to make 16 abilities yielding the same output as 3 abilities ... each of the former have to weaker not by two, not by three, and probably will more than by 4 times. Does it make sense for Raiden thrust to be like ... 1/5 the power of True Thurst? Does it make sense for StarDiver to hit significant less than a simple full thurst? And if a lvl90DRG have to use their entire kit to get the same damage as lvl25 rotation, you'll be actively punishing the high level players.

Cherry pick what someone said to warp the meaning to complete opposite of the poster intended, you're not exactly trying to make a point in good faith.

My post was no real solution, it is to shown how deeply flaw the supposed solution is. The fact that you took what I said as a solution while still offering none of your own mean you already conceive your point, you just don't want to admit it.

[Tehmon]

I think opening the skill tree on lower level content than what your level would be a great change, but I cannot see how doing something like that wouldn't require a lot of work and time to implement. You are talking about 19 classes and around 80 dungeons, 40 trials, 12 alliance raids and 48 raids that which are not level 89-90, not counting high end duties like savages, extremes and minstrel ballads. It's a completely new layer of balancing added to the game that needs to be taken into consideration.

Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill, and in reality opening all skills on lower content wouldn't be hard at all, but in my mind it seems like a pretty signficant undertaking that's going to take considerable resources.

Though then again, '' balancing '' lower level content and taking into consideration new players is already pretty wack since much of that content can be steamrolled and the CT raids are so bad people some people will never see certain mechanics and some bosses become complete jokes. And when it comes to giving the best possible experience for sprouts, well a lot of sprouts will already tag along with older players who will effortlessly clear their way through all the content, skip cutscenes and so and so forth. New players will never get a '' pure '' experience anyway, so what's another added aspect that might or might not allow older content to be even more steamroll-y.

Ultimately they could at least start with a '' unlock all abilities '' box on the duty finder settings, fiddle with the balancing and add it as a standard feature to all lower level dungeons and trials if it's deemed balanced enough and good.

[Stanelis]

No, what matter far more is something that make sense. That a high level attack somehow only a fraction of a fresh ability, or a synch down player have to use 16-18 abilities to get the same output as someone who only use 3 is not how sense is made.

It s still more fun than going back to like 3 WS when you have a level 90 kit (it doesn't make any more sense).

[R041]

Now I haven't done the exact math. But to make 16 abilities yielding the same output as 3 abilities ... each of the former have to weaker not by two, not by three, and probably will more than by 4 times. Does it make sense for Raiden thrust to be like ... 1/5 the power of True Thurst? Does it make sense for StarDiver to hit significant less than a simple full thurst? And if a lvl90DRG have to use their entire kit to get the same damage as lvl25 rotation, you'll be actively punishing the high level players.


Again, I would like to see at least one example you can give that will make sense both from gameplay logic pov, and also mathematically. Not just arbitrary wishful thinking.

It's not as complicated as people think, you don't scale yourself down. You scale everything up to you.

WoW does this well enough and it makes for a very enjoyable experience overall - It will feel punishing for higher level players to sync down and lose their kit regardless of DPS output.

It's rewarding being able to continue using your new kit in old content and with lower level friends. It makes the content itself relatively seamless through all levels compared to XIV. I never have to worry that a skill changed or was disabled and be confused.

Higher level players are being rewarded with higher level gear and drops, so they should still be actively challenged. You're not competing with each other so why does it matter? You're just trying to cooperate and get shit done, knowing you have different end-goals but can still run through the same content is a fun experience.

Also, XIV isn't doing a great job of keeping the player level matched to MSQ content anyway, they're massively out-leveling all content they do, so when they're given a new skill, they almost never even get to use it at that tier. I'm seeing players 10-20 levels higher than the MSQ they're at. So even that feels pretty bad.

We have Upward Scaling in Deep Dungeon, and Bozja. Downward Scaling in the rest of the Duties and FATEs. So why not try out Equalized Scaling?

WoW scales content/mobs up to the individual player through open world and dungeons. Their zones have a min-max where this is ignored outside of those levels, but it looks like they're making the zone min-max larger every expansion. They also reward you with percentage exp through scaled content, and when you scale old content through Timewalking.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Zone_scaling

[Shurrikhan]

Decrease the pain of bothering with any more low-level content than one must, such as by adjusting the way sync works to allow players the option of retaining a full(er) kit and/or, especially, accelerating the acquisition of skills (allowing us to reach a relatively complete/satisfying kit far earlier).

So you want a player at level 15 with a level 15 kit against a 90 player with a 90 kit...in the same instance.

No.

I want to allow high-level players the option to use number-crunched versions of their kits such that they're producing, despite greater efforts required, roughly equal throughput.

Again, an option, though through greater efforts taken, to make leveling roulette and the like less dreadfully boring for level synced players.

Additionally, I wonder what part of...

accelerating the acquisition of skills (allowing us to reach a relatively complete/satisfying kit far earlier)

...is so awful?

There is one reason why FF14 would never have full ability on synch: it has way too many oGCD.

If the tool kit are mostly GCD then yeah no problem, having the full set just means having more option, and you can crunch the number. But oGCD = free attack, and there is no way you can crunch the number on a max level to make it content appropriate in a low level duty. Like on some classes you're looking at anywhere from 3-6 additional "free" attack, especially in the openers. The max level just gonna nuke the place down unless all of their oGCD is neft to a point where they're no longer worth it to even press the button.

This seems a bizarre take, given how sync has worked in other games, including ones where oGCDs make up a larger portion of the difference between lower- and higher-level kits.

Syncing down a kit isn't a matter of just nerfing the skills that attained between [the lower level] and [the higher level]. At its most basic, you simply multiply the potency of ALL skills within [the higher level]'s kit by the coefficient of the relative-potency-per-minute of [the lower level] over that of [the higher level]. Whether that potency per minute comes from oGCDs or GCDs is irrelevant to that.

Are you willing to forgo an expansion in order to make this a reality? Because while it is probably do-able from a micro standpoint, it will take a large amount of time to accomplish.

Also, can you name two MMORPGs that do this well? I know that World of Warcraft appears to be able to adjust levels for Mobs, but I don't remember them adjusting player DPS on this level.

WoW's subjective (or player-matched) scaling works just fine. Facing a seemingly difficult elite mob, a lv10 player would see, say, a lv13 mob with 3k HP while a lv60 player would see a lv63 mob with some 300k HP. Both would deal comparable portions of damage to that mob, though the lv10 player's parser would read the lv60's damage as being similar to what it'd expect for itself (in raw numbers) and the lv60 player would see the lv10 player's number as like a lv60's.

The worst that can be said of it is that lower-level players can outperform higher-level players when in less ideal situations, because they don't yet have nearly so much to possibly do wrong, and through certain cheesy skills like Touch of Death that have unique inadvertent coding quirks (lower-level players have less of a %HP gap from mobs than higher-level ones and can therefore use Touch of Death sooner).

Its cost? A delay to certain UI revisions, which were then pushed back for Dragonflight, and a bit of overtime work because a couple dungeons (of >140) featured globals/fixed value damage, instead of NPC-stat-based events. It did not require "forgo[ing] an expansion".

(GW2's and ESO's level-sync works differently, but are each also pretty objectively far better than XIV's, in themselves and contextually.)

[Graeham]

I want to allow high-level players the option

Scale up and scale down is same. AI balance is not same as do fight at designing level.

Option is even more confusion. Maybe become easy or hard to have full ability. Tank like it because having extra defensive and invuln make it more easy. Healer want to lose ability because they only use the heal and attak buton and better to have power boost. But all find way of win with less struggling. Is reason behind no pants sync crystal tower. Is no option only optimum.

Lol you are not create the option only the confuse and exploit.

[Jojoya]

It's not as complicated as people think, you don't scale yourself down. You scale everything up to you.

WoW does this well enough and it makes for a very enjoyable experience overall - It will feel punishing for higher level players to sync down and lose their kit regardless of DPS output.

You're going to get a lot of disagreement here because different players focus on different aspects.

I did not find WoW's system enjoyable when it was added while I was still playing WoW. I found it disappointing especially since that level scaling extended to gear item level in some content, not just character level. You never felt like you were progressing and getting ahead of content you had already completed.

The level sync system here gives you frequent reminders of just how far your character has come as the WoL. For someone focused on character progression over job toolkit, that's important. Those level 43 Morbols out in the Sylphlands that were so annoying when you were only level 43-44 yourself are now a trivial enemy, as they should be.

If they were to be leveled up to the same level as you so they remained just as annoying, what was even the point of continuing to level up? Just to get a couple of extra buttons to press every 30-60 seconds? Big whoopee.

Each system fills a niche for a certain type of player. Those who like FFXIV's system have gravitated to this game. Those who like WoW's system have gravitated to WoW.

Make this game like WoW and where are players who like the current FFXIV system supposed to go to get what they want? If you like WoW's system better, you have WoW to play.

[Misplaced_Marbles]

For someone focused on character progression over job toolkit, that's important.

And that might have been relevant while there was story for jobs, but now that you just pull a new skill out your backside at designated level intervals, it's just not the same. Also, it doesn't remind me how far my character has come as the WoL, it reminds me how much lesser they were before.

Personally, i found it great that enemies in GW2 were easier but not trivial regardless of what level you were at while still being able to use all my abilities. There'd be no point in doing open world events if all fights were all over in an instant. When was the last time you went to exterminate level 43 Morbols for fun, or is the point that there is no point so it's great that you've moved past those enemies for good? Seems counter-intuitive to me... Anyway, while you can do FATEs (although why would you) in FFXIV, scaling down to an extremely trimmed kit is dull, so i won't.

Copying from WoW would be par for the course, so don't be surprised if they eventually realize making the game more enjoyable would be a good idea. I can only shake my head that still this pitiable system has existed this long.

[Deveryn]

Too much copying from WoW would be bad for both. Those that like to go back and forth for whatever reason would likely tire of both. I see people speak so fondly of other games and it makes me wonder, what are you even doing here?