YPYT is griefing. Tank role is not "puller" role

[Shurrikhan]

I've been playing MMO's long time and people thinking DPS should be able to pull is very much a new thing and almost exclusive to this game.

Which would those be, then?

Using whatever provides the most advantage, more so than fettering what a team can/should do to overgeneralized job descriptions, has been the norm in GW2, NWN, UO, AA, RO, RS/OSRS, WoW, TERA, ESO, Rift, B&S, BDO, FFXI, PSO, D2, <still missing a few, but this hardly need be exhaustive>...

The idea that "I have the right to ignore my typical responsibilities and to purposely PK my party members if their preference, even if it outnumbers by own, differs from mine, so long as I have <Role Title X>" on the other hand? Not so much.

[Regentwill]

Please keep in mind the argument is for FF14 which means I am comparing it to other games like FF14. That I'd, games with the holy trinity or compatible group dynamic (like rift) as well as instanced dungeons with a set number. In almost all games like you have mentioned that are in that category have two responses to the dps or healer pulling ahead of the tank in a random group. Either the tank goes YPYT or the tank leaves the dungeon and due to the fact that these kinds of games are low on tanks the group complains about diva tanks and the group disbands.

[Regentwill]

I just got off work and on my phone so sorry about typos. I can't find how to edit. I have played:
EQ, Ultima online, ragnarok online, WoW, flyff, aion, age of Conan, GW1 and GW2 though GW1 was really more just a pvp game. Um, Wildstar which RIP underrated game. Rift, War and I still play War on the private server. A lot of ESO. I did play EQ2 for a while but it's just not a great game. D2 definitely a lot of that and reloaded. I did play BDO but only for like 9 months after release. Good pvp. Lost Ark and albion online.Archage and lord of the rings 0nline but I haven't gone back since f2p. Probably quite a few more.

[dspguy]

Never played XI eh?

As far as DPS pulling in FFXI, that was a very different game than FFXIV. There was an actual death penalty (/gasp!) and if you wanted to keep the exp coming through exp chains, you had to send out the DPS (or the BRD, which was not a DPS in that game) to pull while the group finished off the last 20% or so of the mob's HP.

Death in FFXIV is a joke. If the tank fails to use mitigation or the healer messes up, you lose...what? A minute or two of time running back and pulling again. You lose no experience, no gil, and very little time. But, when everyone is accustomed to 12-18 minute dungeons, those 2 minutes seem like forever. In FFXI, if your party wiped, you didn't just lose 10 minutes rezzing and waiting for weakness to wear off, you probably lost 30 minutes of experience for that death.

in FFXI, it was in your best interest, truly, to prevent deaths. And you'd have those rare occasions when the puller would eat a death to not train the group with 3-4 mobs. You could raise up just the puller, toss a stoneskin on them and they could continue to pull while weak.

YPYT is a silly conversation to have. In all content outside of Bozja, adding more enemies to a pull is rarely a problem. The tank is AOEing anyway and will pull hate with one attack once the mobs are in the group. Killing 5 enemies takes as much time as 10 or 15, as long as the group can take them down fast enough while the tank and healer manage HP. But, it doesn't mean you can force a tank into pulling more than they are comfortable with. That's duty finder for you.

[dspguy]

but I've been playing MMO's long time and people thinking DPS should be able to pull is very much a new thing and almost exclusive to this game.

In EQ, Monks were preferred as pullers, and they were clearly DPS.
In EQ2, Monks were also pullers, but they were strangely considered tanks (the least tanky of the tanks).
FFXI (as noted earlier), pulls were commonly done by any party member that made sense. I saw tanks do it, healers, bards, DPS. But, I'd say it non-tanks were in the majority.
In LOTRO, tanks were pullers. I don't recall the reasoning why, but generally speaking, they were pullers.
In Vanguard (which was supposed to be a new-age EQ1), tanks were pullers. Enemies hit too hard and seemed to always be faster than players, so it was tough for anyone else to pull.
In WoW, I think it was commonly the tank, but other jobs were also viable. In some instances, it was more about pulling to not aggro everything else and experience was more important than the class doing it.

FFXIV is different in that the meta is for the pull to always be wall-to-wall. The goal is to aggro everything. It isn't like nearly every other game where you are excising only a few mobs since anything more would overrun your party.

[Jojoya]

In EQ, Monks were preferred as pullers, and they were clearly DPS.
In EQ2, Monks were also pullers, but they were strangely considered tanks (the least tanky of the tanks).
FFXI (as noted earlier), pulls were commonly done by any party member that made sense. I saw tanks do it, healers, bards, DPS. But, I'd say it non-tanks were in the majority.
In LOTRO, tanks were pullers. I don't recall the reasoning why, but generally speaking, they were pullers.
In Vanguard (which was supposed to be a new-age EQ1), tanks were pullers. Enemies hit too hard and seemed to always be faster than players, so it was tough for anyone else to pull.
In WoW, I think it was commonly the tank, but other jobs were also viable. In some instances, it was more about pulling to not aggro everything else and experience was more important than the class doing it.

FFXIV is different in that the meta is for the pull to always be wall-to-wall. The goal is to aggro everything. It isn't like nearly every other game where you are excising only a few mobs since anything more would overrun your party.

But that's talking about content where there were specific reasons it would be better for a DPS to pull instead of the tank. Tanks many times would not have any ranged abilities so if you wanted to separate part of a pack out to kill first before getting to the rest, you needed a DPS to pull. Same if you needed to use crowd control - DPS had those tools while the tank rarely had more than a stun or interrupt that would only work in melee range.

Those situations are not an issue in this game. I don't know if they were in the distant past but they're certainly not an issue now. There are no reasons to have a DPS pull here in dungeons, It is always safer to let the tank do it so mobs are coming straight to the tank instead of scattering.

[Gserpent]

Please keep in mind the argument is for FF14 which means I am comparing it to other games like FF14. That I'd, games with the holy trinity or compatible group dynamic (like rift) as well as instanced dungeons with a set number. In almost all games like you have mentioned that are in that category have two responses to the dps or healer pulling ahead of the tank in a random group. Either the tank goes YPYT or the tank leaves the dungeon and due to the fact that these kinds of games are low on tanks the group complains about diva tanks and the group disbands.

I can't think of any "modern MMO" game where the tank is the dedicated or designated puller. In modern games, it literally does not matter who pulls. This includes all of WoW for its entire history and all of FF14 for its entire history. It does not and never has mattered who pulls. It may have taken more than literally one input to secure aggro on mobs in earlier versions of these games but it was still not the tank's "job" to pull. It was whoever felt confident doing so. Indeed, at times in WoW, it was sometimes preferable for a ranged class to pull because their attacks or spells had a longer reach than the tank's ranged attacks or pulls. Or because a Hunter could, for example, use Misdirection to apply their aggro to the tank while they pulled the monsters, which ensured they'd go right for the tank. But in no case was there ever a "designated puller" for content.

For older MMOs like FF11, EQ, etc - it was frequently that a tank was *NOT* the "designated puller" for one reason or another. Sometimes they were, sometimes they weren't.

Regardless, YPYT has always been a toxic mentality and behavior that's largely grounded in egotism, not any kind of reality. It happens in FF14 because Square-Enix goes out of their way to try and make each and every tank feel like they're special boys and girls and they're making a big sacrifice to play such a hard and demanding job... but that couldn't be further from the truth. Tank is unquestionably the easiest role in the game to play, especially above dungeons/normals, where DPS tend to just outright die if they get hit by things they ain't supposed to get hit by, and enrage timers mean that suddenly you can't really get away with playing your freestyle SAM anymore.

I wasn't around for it, but I'm lead to believe that tanking was a bit trickier in HW, so maybe that's why they felt the need to add mounts and special ego-stroking achievements? I played WAR during ARR and it wasn't particularly challenging to maintain aggro and stay alive, but I've heard HW made things messy by adding a DPS stance to tanks.

There are no reasons to have a DPS pull here in dungeons, It is always safer to let the tank do it so mobs are coming straight to the tank instead of scattering.

Not really? Aggro is very basic and easy to understand. If the archer hits a monster and pulls a pack, all of those monsters will default to chasing the archer. If the healer does any healing after this point, they will probably swap to the healer. In any case, as long as the archer or healer are in a direct line between those monsters and the tank, they will get scooped up by the tank automatically because the tank is spamming AOEs the whole time.

And even if the tank misses one, monsters in dungeons/normals hit like wet noodles. You can quite literally clear dungeons without a tank, and this is probably by design. I've cleared plenty of dungeons by healer-tanking them after a tank gets disconnected mid-pull and no one felt like waiting for them.

[Curisu]

A few days ago I went into YPYT mode.
It was a bard in the last EW msq dungeon and he single targeted one add while I was pulling.
The bard was also just playing one song and refreshed the dots one by one, but that is a other story.

He tanked that add where he stopped running, so I had to use provoke to get it.
At the third pull and after my advice of using all songs back to back was ignored I started to ignore his add.

Just AOEd down everything else while he dropped lower and lower until he realised and ran into the other adds.

Sadly he didn't got the hint and did the same for all remaining pulls.
Take Aggro of one add, kept it in Narnia until he dropped to 10%hp and got emergency healed and then he brought it to me.

I simply don't trust the DPS to be clever enough to bring the adds they pulled to the tanks.

[dspguy]

Regardless, YPYT has always been a toxic mentality and behavior that's largely grounded in egotism, not any kind of reality.

It depends how it is framed.

While talking about other MMOs, it boils down to the group has to work together. If we were talking about FFXI, if the healer says "I'm not ready" (due to MP or some other reason), if the puller were to pull anyway... YPYT. If it was EQ1 and the monk was pulling and the group says they aren't ready (usually because mages need to rest mana/MP), chances are, that monk is going to eat it.

Usually a group being ready is combination of:
- healer has enough resources (MP) to handle the pull, otherwise the group will die
- other mages have enough resources (commonly MP) to kill quick enough, otherwise the group will die
- tank's aggro abilities are not on cooldown (issue in some non-FFXIV games), otherwise the group will die
- everyone else is not AFK, otherwise the group will die (what is this? A MizzTeq guide video?)

Usually it is combination of the team being "secure" in their ability to take down the enemy and the puller works in concert with the group. Some pullers would simply "pull over" the readiness of the group. And after a warning or two, I could see the rest of the group not engaging and letting the puller die.

I think YPYT comes across as toxic but sometimes it is in reaction to toxic behavior in the first place.

[Regentwill]

I can't think of any "modern MMO" game where the tank is the dedicated or designated puller. In modern games, it literally does not matter who pulls. This includes all of WoW for its entire history and all of FF14 for its entire history. It does not and never has mattered who pulls. It may have taken more than literally one input to secure aggro on mobs in earlier versions of these games but it was still not the tank's "job" to pull. It was whoever felt confident doing so. Indeed, at times in WoW, it was sometimes preferable for a ranged class to pull because their attacks or spells had a longer reach than the tank's ranged attacks or pulls. Or because a Hunter could, for example, use Misdirection to apply their aggro to the tank while they pulled the monsters, which ensured they'd go right for the tank. But in no case was there ever a "designated puller" for content.



.

I'm not going to offer a rebuttal to this since I've already talked about these games. Any modern game with the holy trinity by and large uses tank pulls. What you are saying is wrong. I've played those games, I've been deep in the community. WoW has NEVER had a time where DPS pulled to the tank with the one exception of pulls where a hunter had to use a special ability that sent their aggro the the tank. And that was used rarely to pull and more often to boost aggro when the tank pulls. Rogues aggro shift was used on other DPS most of the time for a DPS boost and not to pull.

I don't know how you could possibly think that in WoW DPS were pullers.