YPYT is griefing. Tank role is not "puller" role

[Regentwill]

It's only griefing if it's creating an unfavorable equilibrium of stress to pursuit of the party's interest. Most want to complete their daily in a reasonable time. Most do not want to be stressed in doing so. Being a team player is essentially acting the best you can towards both priorities.

If 3/4s of the party want to go faster, would not be stressed out by going faster, and are not bottlenecked by the tank (regardless of their refusing to use CDs or do anything but spam Unleash) for anything other than courtesy (undeserved, in this case), then the tank demanding the rest tiptoe around their domineering ego is the one griefing.


Consider: What's the stressor there? Not a content mechanic, but a social factor -- and from a single person, opposite a majority.

And if the tank refuses to take threat on those pulls, it's no longer incidental; it's intentional. How would that possibly not be griefing/trolling/gameplay sabotage? It is actively and disproportionately negatively affecting one's party, to a lower average quality for everyone, in a way that relies upon breaking from a much more fundamental responsibility (not just pulling and pace-setting, but actually tanking).

YPYT is purposely ignoring one's actual responsibilities (not just their typical perks/prerogatives) with the express purpose of harming other players in order to enforce a minority preference over that majority. That is, definitively, entitled griefing.

Just as a quick note, people being against YPYT are definitely not in the Majority. I have no numbers to back that up, but I've been playing MMO's long time and people thinking DPS should be able to pull is very much a new thing and almost exclusive to this game.

[Canadane]

Just as a quick note, people being against YPYT are definitely not in the Majority. I have no numbers to back that up, but I've been playing MMO's long time and people thinking DPS should be able to pull is very much a new thing and almost exclusive to this game.

Never played XI eh?

[Regentwill]

almost exclusive to this game.

Never played XI eh?

I can admit that no I did not play Final Fantasy XI but see above quote. I said Almost, as there is nothing that is completely absolute. Those old games were more of how that was handled. Ranged DPS go out, pull the mob to the waiting group, group DPS's mobs down. I am aware of that, I did not play XI but I did play Everquest and I think the pulling system was similar. But pretty much from the introduction of instanced dungeons it has not been that way.

EDIT: Actually taking that into consideration, I can see why a lot of FFXI players who moved to FF14 (which makes sense) would not be aware that a lot of other games people play use a different pulling system. Kind of eye opening there.

[dspguy]

Never played XI eh?

As far as DPS pulling in FFXI, that was a very different game than FFXIV. There was an actual death penalty (/gasp!) and if you wanted to keep the exp coming through exp chains, you had to send out the DPS (or the BRD, which was not a DPS in that game) to pull while the group finished off the last 20% or so of the mob's HP.

Death in FFXIV is a joke. If the tank fails to use mitigation or the healer messes up, you lose...what? A minute or two of time running back and pulling again. You lose no experience, no gil, and very little time. But, when everyone is accustomed to 12-18 minute dungeons, those 2 minutes seem like forever. In FFXI, if your party wiped, you didn't just lose 10 minutes rezzing and waiting for weakness to wear off, you probably lost 30 minutes of experience for that death.

in FFXI, it was in your best interest, truly, to prevent deaths. And you'd have those rare occasions when the puller would eat a death to not train the group with 3-4 mobs. You could raise up just the puller, toss a stoneskin on them and they could continue to pull while weak.

YPYT is a silly conversation to have. In all content outside of Bozja, adding more enemies to a pull is rarely a problem. The tank is AOEing anyway and will pull hate with one attack once the mobs are in the group. Killing 5 enemies takes as much time as 10 or 15, as long as the group can take them down fast enough while the tank and healer manage HP. But, it doesn't mean you can force a tank into pulling more than they are comfortable with. That's duty finder for you.

[Shurrikhan]

I've been playing MMO's long time and people thinking DPS should be able to pull is very much a new thing and almost exclusive to this game.

Which would those be, then?

Using whatever provides the most advantage, more so than fettering what a team can/should do to overgeneralized job descriptions, has been the norm in GW2, NWN, UO, AA, RO, RS/OSRS, WoW, TERA, ESO, Rift, B&S, BDO, FFXI, PSO, D2, <still missing a few, but this hardly need be exhaustive>...

The idea that "I have the right to ignore my typical responsibilities and to purposely PK my party members if their preference, even if it outnumbers by own, differs from mine, so long as I have <Role Title X>" on the other hand? Not so much.

[dspguy]

but I've been playing MMO's long time and people thinking DPS should be able to pull is very much a new thing and almost exclusive to this game.

In EQ, Monks were preferred as pullers, and they were clearly DPS.
In EQ2, Monks were also pullers, but they were strangely considered tanks (the least tanky of the tanks).
FFXI (as noted earlier), pulls were commonly done by any party member that made sense. I saw tanks do it, healers, bards, DPS. But, I'd say it non-tanks were in the majority.
In LOTRO, tanks were pullers. I don't recall the reasoning why, but generally speaking, they were pullers.
In Vanguard (which was supposed to be a new-age EQ1), tanks were pullers. Enemies hit too hard and seemed to always be faster than players, so it was tough for anyone else to pull.
In WoW, I think it was commonly the tank, but other jobs were also viable. In some instances, it was more about pulling to not aggro everything else and experience was more important than the class doing it.

FFXIV is different in that the meta is for the pull to always be wall-to-wall. The goal is to aggro everything. It isn't like nearly every other game where you are excising only a few mobs since anything more would overrun your party.

[Jojoya]

In EQ, Monks were preferred as pullers, and they were clearly DPS.
In EQ2, Monks were also pullers, but they were strangely considered tanks (the least tanky of the tanks).
FFXI (as noted earlier), pulls were commonly done by any party member that made sense. I saw tanks do it, healers, bards, DPS. But, I'd say it non-tanks were in the majority.
In LOTRO, tanks were pullers. I don't recall the reasoning why, but generally speaking, they were pullers.
In Vanguard (which was supposed to be a new-age EQ1), tanks were pullers. Enemies hit too hard and seemed to always be faster than players, so it was tough for anyone else to pull.
In WoW, I think it was commonly the tank, but other jobs were also viable. In some instances, it was more about pulling to not aggro everything else and experience was more important than the class doing it.

FFXIV is different in that the meta is for the pull to always be wall-to-wall. The goal is to aggro everything. It isn't like nearly every other game where you are excising only a few mobs since anything more would overrun your party.

But that's talking about content where there were specific reasons it would be better for a DPS to pull instead of the tank. Tanks many times would not have any ranged abilities so if you wanted to separate part of a pack out to kill first before getting to the rest, you needed a DPS to pull. Same if you needed to use crowd control - DPS had those tools while the tank rarely had more than a stun or interrupt that would only work in melee range.

Those situations are not an issue in this game. I don't know if they were in the distant past but they're certainly not an issue now. There are no reasons to have a DPS pull here in dungeons, It is always safer to let the tank do it so mobs are coming straight to the tank instead of scattering.