Healers need an overhaul

[Midareyukki]

As a healer main since 2.0, especially a WHM main at that up until this expansion, I looked at the post in the last 3-4 pages and just shake my head because for the most part, they're all hyperbolic.

Hyperbolic is justified if it's used sparingly. But when people hyperbolic EVERY SINGLE argument they make then you gonna get called out for being over-dramatic, and deservedly so. You know why something is called "symbolic"? When everything is symbolic then nothing is symbolic anymore.

Ok...? So your marbles are sprawled all over the bathroom floor. Noted. Thanks for the hint, nice knowing you can't communicate like a normal human being and can't take being called out on having a boring system.

[Raven2014]

Spamming Cure. Hundreds of times. Over and over. Is. Not. Fun.

Thanks for providing an example of hyperbolic and overdramatic. I rest my case as nothing else needed to be said.

lmao you people are unreal. "actually I do remember, and am capable of conceptualizing, when healers had marginally involved damage toolkits, and I don't want to go back I would rather healers stay braindead" incredible

If the 3.0 version is your "idea" of a good healer DPS model, I want none of it.

If you want to argue healer back then was more fun, then yes. But it was more fun because back then you have to manage your aggro, you have to manage your MP, you have to hard-shield not because someone gonna die, but to actually solve mechanic, you actually have to heal because the oGCD kit was fairly limited. It was FUN because it kept healer busy doing healer things, not because I had to maintain 2 DoTs.

And this was discussed many many MANY pages ago in both this thread and in the "If you want more engaging content, go play ultimate" thread". This is the only logical conclusion healers can make for engagement while making this role accessible. Everyone who tried arguing against healer getting more DPS skills kept on trying to deny it, which is what led to this "echo chamber", because at this point, SE has been quite literally showing that every other option isn't working and hasn't been working for years now. Otherwise, there wouldn't be people asking about why the healer role is so empty right now in the interview.

You're the first one who said it and probably won't be the last, so I'll response the same way I always did. That's not my problem.

As far as I can see SE is neither listening or doing whatever side wanted, and until they reach a decision, I will continue to advocate for my preferred solution to the problem. I don't get why people from the other of the arguments keep bringing up this and that and how I should just gave up and shut up because "SE not gonna do what you want anyway".

Well, have they done what you want?

As far as I see they haven't. Hell, if anything the trend seems to be the moving away the exactly the opposite direction of what you and yours are asking. But I don't see people see that as a reason for them to stop talking, so why should I?

[Deceptus]

Thanks for providing an example of hyperbolic and overdramatic. I rest my case as nothing else needed to be said.



If the 3.0 version is your "idea" of a good healer DPS model, I want none of it.

If you want to argue healer back then was more fun, then yes. But it was more fun because back then you have to manage your aggro, you have to manage your MP, you have to hard-shield not because someone gonna die, but to actually solve mechanic, you actually have to heal because the oGCD kit was fairly limited. It was FUN because it kept healer busy doing healer things, not because I had to maintain 2 DoTs.




You're the first one who said it and probably won't be the last, so I'll response the same way I always did. That's not my problem.

As far as I can see SE is neither listening or doing whatever side wanted, and until they reach a decision, I will continue to advocate for my preferred solution to the problem. I don't get why people from the other of the arguments keep bringing up this and that and how I should just gave up and shut up because "SE not gonna do what you want anyway".

Well, have they done what you want?

As far as I see they haven't. Hell, if anything the trend seems to be the moving away the exactly the opposite direction of what you and yours are asking. But I don't see people see that as a reason for them to stop talking, so why should I?

Point still stands and is never addressed:

What are healers supposed to do when there's no healing required? Why is their downtime engagement not given the same weight as the other two roles?

[Shurrikhan]

If the 3.0 version is your "idea" of a good healer DPS model, I want none of it.

If you want to argue healer back then was more fun, then yes. But it was more fun because back then you have to manage your aggro, you have to manage your MP, you have to hard-shield not because someone gonna die, but to actually solve mechanic, you actually have to heal because the oGCD kit was fairly limited. It was FUN because it kept healer busy doing healer things, not because I had to maintain 2 DoTs.

None of those things have particularly changed outside of simply relative healing requirements.

We did not manage aggro outside of very rarely holding Sacred Shroud for until after a Cure III.

We did not particularly (need to) manage our MP, nor did we have any effective means to do so since lost to us; we simply avoiding overhealing, just as we do now, and Bards and Machinists took care of the rest.

People very frequently used shields when they could have used a straight heal, so long as the shield had greater ppgcd.

The only thing that changed kit-wise was that buttons worth of utility and, especially, offensive actions were replaced with redundant healing oGCDs.

[Semirhage]

Thanks for providing an example of hyperbolic and overdramatic. I rest my case as nothing else needed to be said.

See how the Sylphie totally ignores the very real, very common hundreds of casts of Glare in every single level of content? "Hyperbole!" "Overdramatic!". It's because they're utterly incapable of admitting that one of the primary features of current healers is unfun. We've told them over and over and over again how "just make us heal more" wouldn't solve this issue. They don't care. They -enjoy- the glarespam, but even then they realize that makes them sound lazy, so they dodge and weave and dodge away from saying anything about it other than either calling it hyperbolic, saying it doesn't happen, or ignoring it entirely.

[Deceptus]

None of those things have particularly changed outside of simply relative healing requirements.

We did not manage aggro outside of very rarely holding Sacred Shroud for until after a Cure III.
.

Lucid also had a 2m CD at that time so generally you were using both at the same time in most circumstances if the DPS forgot what the Diversion ability button was.

[Raven2014]

None of those things have particularly changed outside of simply relative healing requirements.

We did not manage aggro outside of very rarely holding Sacred Shroud for until after a Cure III.

That's not true. Unless you have tanks who willingly to keep the stance up all the times. Maybe I was unlucky but I did not see those tanks a lot back then, both PF and static.

Also, are we just gonna repeat the same argument circle we had a month ago? I'll just give you a short summary of what I said back then:

- Did I say the system in 2.0 - 3.0 was perfect? No.
- What I said was elements back then should be enhanced, refined, and expanse.

I don't know why people saying stuffs like "oh as long as your tank is good, your ninja know his thing, your BRD/MCH take care of MP .etc." then it's not difference for healer as if they're something taken for granted.

First: they're not taken for granted.
Second: even when you succeed in doing that, it still means there are layer of consideration and coordination to ensure a smooth run. Things that are now completely absent.

Like I said a month ago, if you keep stripping raw element away because "it's janky, not working too well" instead of refining and improving them than you eventually end up with a skeleton. Hence, I present you today's healer.

Point still stands and is never addressed:

What are healers supposed to do when there's no healing required? Why is their downtime engagement not given the same weight as the other two roles?

Why you asking me to address that? Do I look like someone who worked for SE? I feel like this is something people try to argue with me always conveniently overlook: I never said the current healer is fine, but like ... you guys always seem to make out that what's I'm saying.

I never argue the point healer need more active engagement, the only thing I'm argue is "more DPS button" is not the solution to that, and I think that offend a lot of people. All I know is currently healers have a problem, but I'm not gonna try and pretend I know exactly what SE's vision/direction with the role.

[flowerfairy]

Also, are we just gonna repeat the same argument circle we had a month ago? I'll just give you a short summary of what I said back then:

- Did I say the system in 2.0 - 3.0 was perfect? No.
- What I said was elements back then should be enhanced, refined, and expanse.

Sorry for misinterpreting, but it's a little confusing to imagine exactly what do you want for this game, because earlier you said

The healer kit is powerful, yes, too powerful in fact. But what I want to see is fight that push the limit of that healing kit, not to become a green DPS.

I find present healer's kit and past healer's kits to be vastly different from each other. And to me, it ultimately comes to a matter of "quality over quantity". I don't care for healer kits today because we have crap like Cure II, Tetra, and Afflatus Solace which all do the same exact thing. As well as Medica, Cure III, Plenary, Lilybell which also all do the same exact thing. I don't care if a fight is designed where I'm forced to constantly use these on cooldowns and spam GCD heals because that's not engaging or fun, it's Glarespam on the opposite spectrum. There is barely any interaction going in the kits, and the newer heals from ShB and EW do not add anything that I feel like is needed to heal because I already had stuff to heal the party. It's just heal, strong heal, stronger heal.

These elements are extremely different than when we were much more reliant on our GCD heals since oGCD heals were scarce and sparce. I consider today's kits to be faaar from expanding and enhancing past iterations. So what exactly do you want to see in the future for healers?

Pretty sure I said this in another thread, but I want damage tools because the powerful, redundant heals are not interesting. Cutting those out will make us more reliant on the GCD heals, which I consider to be more engaging. There, we would be constantly being questioned, "Should I do damage or should I heal? Which would support my party the most?", and this is what I think makes an engaging support kit in any genre of games.

[HyperiusUltima]

I never argue the point healer need more active engagement, the only thing I'm argue is "more DPS button" is not the solution to that, and I think that offend a lot of people. All I know is currently healers have a problem, but I'm not gonna try and pretend I know exactly what SE's vision/direction with the role.

So tell me your alternative. If it’s not the mind-numbing spam of GlareDosisMaleficBroil, then what is it? Because we’ve been through this old, old argument numerous times. What the bloody hell makes healers so grating that they aren’t playing the role and it’s bleeding player usage? There are two philosophies that each side has in the matter.

SE’s side: “We need to make sure that the casual player base can play healer, so we double downed on our reset in Shadowbringers to keep them nice and simple. At the Savage level, we’ve tried to make healing more difficult this tier with more damage, so the answer is more incremental damage adjustments in fight design.”

Healer Playerbase’s side: “Our job has been outrageously ignored and insulted via the “Go Play Ultimate” remark by the developers after we have provided multiple pages of feedback in our sub-forum and now in General Discussion. The problem with the job is that it is not fun rotationally, since you are spamming one button and sometimes hitting two with bells and whistles attached. The way the game is designed for the healing aspect is very scripted to the point that it’s like any other mechanical song and dance. The fact that we have a double standard compared to all other roles in terms of rotation is unacceptable. To draw people back, we need to focus on the core problem: Healer Downtime. What do healers do when there’s nothing to heal?”

These two come into conflict when they discuss healer downtime, as the developers are afraid that by making systems too complex, they’ll have a repeat of Heavensward and Stormblood, when that is not the case currently. The issues that were present in those two expansions have been removed at Shadowbringers with the big reset. Now they need to build upon their current systems once more after throwing the baby out with the bath water; but where jobs such as Tanks and DPS have had gains, Healers have bad losses due to this reset.

So much complexity Healers had was stripped out and has yet to be filled. What do you think we get when you have a job that has 0 complexity and very little engagement in gameplay?

[Raven2014]

So what exactly do you want to see in the future for healers?

No more new oGCD heal for a couple expansion would be a good start. But frankly, I think the currently healers is in such a state then I don't believe a good solution can be reached by simply "removing or adding" a few things. It needs a full rework ala SMN style.

And that rework need to be done with a different mind set and expectation. We can argue the up and down of the current situation, but I believe the root cause of its own is SE seems to have a really low expectation regarding healer players for some reason, almost like it's designed for babies, both in term of mentality and skill set.

So much complexity Healers had was stripped out and has yet to be filled. What do you think we get when you have a job that has 0 complexity and very little engagement in gameplay?

See above. I will not pretend each of the thing I mentioned by itself will solve the issue. But there is a saying "take care of the pennies and the dollar will take care of itself". As the developers kept stripping these "pennies" over the years (as from some of the reply here, some of the players seem to have equally dismissing attitude), and everyone wonder why healers can't make a dollar?