Healers need an overhaul

[AnotherPerson]

Explain why healers need it more? Like ... ok, I'm not saying healers doesn't need a rework. I will even say it would be nice if healers get a major rework ... but common now, it's fairly obvious why they need to rework PLD. It's pretty much a forgotten orphan that were left behind. Its output sucks, this tier bleed damage model just rip PLD to shred. Its support kit is badly out of date, too situational, and overall clunky. As a healer main, if I have a choice I would prefer not to heal a PLD. Up until now, PLD has always been my go to tank, and now I hate it. Frankly they should rework and get rid of this idea "PLD is a tank that can save/recover a run" because face it, when people argue about class balance nobody care about "saving a run" unless it's a RDM.

I dunno, maybe it has to do with the role being least played and there's a lack of healers in PF because no one wants to heal when it's too boring to do the same attack skill over and over and over?

Basically, PLD have an existential crisis. People will avoid to bring a PLD if they can. In fact, if you're part of the early clear crowd then it's not even a choice. And it's obvious they want to square that issue away before the next content circle so PLD main don't get excluded. That's the correct priority.

AST loses their card variety.
SCH loses their DoT gameplay. Fairy starts ghosting and AI becomes more clunky due to oGCD commands creating a delay in skill activation compared to manually controlling the fairy through pet GCDs to the point where it doesn't feel like a pet healer. It took over an entire expansion to address these issues, but fairy skills can still ghost on the player's end if they were used in succession.
WHM offers nothing unique to the table when compared to the other 3 healers.

PLD gets more holy magic. PLD gets more healing output.

Ah yes, existential crisis. Don't get me wrong, PLD has obvious concerns, but don't act as if healers have minor problems when the whole healer role is effectively reduced to "press 2-1-1-1-1-1-1" outside of mechanics (THAT EVERY JOB has to handle). People avoid bringing a PLD, people avoid playing healer entirely.

Healers may think they're desperate due to this "woe is me, and only my trouble is the most important and gravest!" mindset but ... at the end of the day, every group gonna bring 2 healers.

Yep, every group brings 2 healers. This is also why in PF, there's an abundance of parties just waiting for a healer to show up so they can start, but barely any of those spots get filled up exactly because not many people like the current iteration of healers. The ones who fill the role, in my experience, end up being bad at healing because, surprise surprise - they aren't healer mains, just people who want to start the party. I'm not saying people who main healers don't exist because they do (I love the aspect of managing healing), but they're far fewer in number lately exactly because people simply hate how boring the downtime can be for a healer. The downtime cannot be erased, but instead got magnified in basically every piece of content while healers simulataneously lost their DPS skills. It's simply not fun to play a healer, and therefore no one wants to play it. It doesn't matter if balance is good if the role as a whole sucks because balance destroyed the fun aspect of it. This is why people are afraid of PLD's gameplay being ruined and turned into a 2 min burst job. People are afraid it's going to feel just like every other tank and no one likes homogenization to that extent. Unsuprisingly, people can draw parallels to healer gameplay in that regard, except for healers, it's many times worse from a lack of damage skill variety once they enter downtime.

Just look at SAM complaints with Kaiten. Kaiten doesn't even get pressed all that often, but it's still a centerpiece to the Samurai gameplay. People hate only using their gauge for Shinten, and using Shinten isn't even as frequent as using healer's attack spell. That should be an obvious example of how poorly healers are designed for the past two expansions.

Honestly, the longer they take to update healers, the more I'm inclined to leave the role as well and never look back at it. Basic updates for this role take months to years to come out. I honestly rather play DPS or tank at this point like everyone else and ditch the role too.

[Raven2014]

I dunno, maybe it has to do with the role being least played and there's a lack of healers in PF because no one wants to heal when it's too boring to do the same attack skill over and over and over?

Oh really, that's how you read it? Healer this tier ain't any more boring or exciting then it has been before, so not like there have been any change on that front. What CHANGED however, is the healers kinda ... need to heal this tier? Just a little more tinsy then usual, but apparently that's a bit much too ask for the green DPS.

I'm personally fine with it. This is the first tier in a long while that I actually feel I "need" to heal, make me feel alive I tell you. As a healer main the PF's healer draught ain't my problem, more option for me I would say. Even if they are both problems, from a developers' POV having a class so bad the community may exclude it is a bigger problem, period.

PLD gets more holy magic. PLD gets more healing output.

That ... kinda my point. Class balance you always gonna lose something when you gain something else, and in case of PLD they're not getting new useful thing because they were being balanced around getting "useless" things. PLD needs rework because it was designed in the 2.0 and 3.0 days, and the raid paradigm had shift away from those times. The class itself pretty much need a redesigned to not feel like an oddball out.

ive yet o hear a healer overhaul idea that wasn't make them a wizard who has a heal spell and a resurrection spell.

Just get rid of all healers then add a few healing spell to SMN and call it a day I say. Like everytime I see people mentioned it: trim down the healing bloat on healer, give it a simple DPS rotation ... I had this picture of a SMN light in my head.

[Midareyukki]

That ... kinda my point. Class balance you always gonna lose something when you gain something else, and in case of PLD they're not getting new useful thing because they were being balanced around getting "useless" things. PLD needs rework because it was designed in the 2.0 and 3.0 days, and the raid paradigm had shift away from those times. The class itself pretty much need a redesigned to not feel like an oddball out.

It had a mini-rework in 4.0, actually. And from then on, it became much more viable to play than ever before. You guys didn't just gain a new magical phase, your combos got reworked because they sucked, and you finally had an AoE skill that was actually good to use and not a non-damaging GCD.

And guess what was meta in 4.0. It wasn't DRK, let me tell you, and WAR actually sucked until around 4.2.

That said though, AnotherPerson is right when he says that PLD's stuff outshines healers, and tanks need to be dialed up a tiny bit. Especially on dungeons, dear god. BUT you're right also in that it doesn't fit the current fight design, and that I think it's a relic from 5.0. A LOT of stuff on PLD and GNB I feel is like... "It worked at lv 80. But then they added something new at lv 90 on top of the lv 80 rotation, and then forced them to still operate as though they were lv 80". idk if this makes sense? But to me it feels like so many things drift, you have awkward resource management and you have to make so many weird decisions because the game expects you to do what you used to at lv 80, but you're lv 90 and have more to do than what you otherwise did at lv 80.

[tearagion]

Like everytime I see people mentioned it: trim down the healing bloat on healer, give it a simple DPS rotation ... I had this picture of a SMN light in my head.

Is it really that hard for you to imagine Heavensward? Did you hit your head at some point?

[Raven2014]

Is it really that hard for you to imagine Heavensward? Did you hit your head at some point?

Why do I need to imagine it when I actually played it? In fact, I remember it well enough to say I don't want to see it again. One of the question I used to wonder is "is SE dev obssessed with DoT?". Like back then, almost every classes (save 2?) have a DoT, some has 2 and I was always wonder like ... why? Maintaining 2 DoT isn't my ideal of fun, not on any class, and especially not healer.


And are you people capable of doing discussion without dissing out slight and insult every other response? No wonder why this thread became a massive echo chamber for the most part.

As for Healers, they're in a far worse position in PLD if you look at their kit. If you played Healer and took a minute to figure out what each and every single thing in the role's kits does, you'd see that it's about 90% Healing for nearly all Healers. Their two damage buttons are just a DoT and a generic attack spell. They've been desperate for something new for the role for years.

One last thing before I go, too: Don't act like Healers share that same mindset and generalize it.

Here is what you don't realize: just because you consider that as a problem, doesn't mean I do. And even if two people agree on a problem, doesn't mean they will have the same solution in mind.

The healer kit is powerful, yes, too powerful in fact. But what I want to see is fight that push the limit of that healing kit, not to become a green DPS.

If you are so big-brained to pull out logs and understand them, and fail to understand how a comment is being hyperbolic and merely symbollic of JUST HOW BLOODY BLAND AND POORLY DESIGNED HEALERS ARE, then you all have a problem.

As a healer main since 2.0, especially a WHM main at that up until this expansion, I looked at the post in the last 3-4 pages and just shake my head because for the most part, they're all hyperbolic.

Hyperbolic is justified if it's used sparingly. But when people hyperbolic EVERY SINGLE argument they make then you gonna get called out for being over-dramatic, and deservedly so. You know why something is called "symbolic"? When everything is symbolic then nothing is symbolic anymore.

[Conchoidal]

The healer kit is powerful, yes, too powerful in fact. But what I want to see is fight that push the limit of that healing kit, not to become a green DPS.

SE has stated that they have no intention of increasing healing requirements to that level (and based on the "healer shortage" in the most recent tier will continue to be discouraged from doing so), so it's unlikely they'll ever make that type of content. How do you feel about healers having more dps tools for solo content (e.g. solo instances in MSQ and job/role quests)?

[Ivtrix]

SE has stated that they have no intention of increasing healing requirements to that level (and based on the "healer shortage" in the most recent tier will continue to be discouraged from doing so), so it's unlikely they'll ever make that type of content. How do you feel about healers having more dps tools for solo content (e.g. solo instances in MSQ and job/role quests)?

Hard agree, raising healer requirement floor will only exasperate the issue and you will see less healers and not more. Healing needs to be accessible from a design perspective and that’s why we’ve seen issues this raid tier especially p8s. When the going gets tough, it seems like more people pack up and get going then dig deep.

The desire anyways is for healing to be engaging, not difficult.

I think that both the healing and damage should compliment each other. Proc based incentives like freecure (except don’t fish for freecure it’s terrible), but if cure 2 gave a chance to something like make your next dot, or next couple Clare’s stronger, and vice versa if you casted a couple glares in a row, it would boost the power of your next GCD heal by a stacking amount.

Damage and healing should compliment each other, it will incentivize good habits and potentially change the way you may approach specific mechanics in encounters.

[AnotherPerson]

Why do I need to imagine it when I actually played it? In fact, I remember it well enough to say I don't want to see it again. One of the question I used to wonder is "is SE dev obssessed with DoT?". Like back then, almost every classes (save 2?) have a DoT, some has 2 and I was always wonder like ... why? Maintaining 2 DoT isn't my ideal of fun, not on any class, and especially not healer.


And are you people capable of doing discussion without dissing out slight and insult every other response? No wonder why this thread became a massive echo chamber for the most part.




Here is what you don't realize: just because you consider that as a problem, doesn't mean I do. And even if two people agree on a problem, doesn't mean they will have the same solution in mind.

The healer kit is powerful, yes, too powerful in fact. But what I want to see is fight that push the limit of that healing kit, not to become a green DPS.

Unfortunately, that will never be a viable solution because SE wants ilvl sync to be as high as it is for accessibility. Healer toolkits are tuned for the Min ILVL, which is where the healing is most intensive. Even so, people doing normal mode content with above average ilvl can still struggle with basic healing because people's average skill levels can be vastly different. Titania for example, is where I met most healers struggle because they simply can't heal a bad tank. They would sometimes fail without 2-3 Echo buffs. Meanwhile another healer won't have to GCD heal at all without echo because they are good at using healing abilities efficiently. At most, they use 2-3 GCD heals and go back to 2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 attack spam. This vast gap in player skill level can't handle such a drastic increase in damage in normal mode content if ilvl is balanced to keep healing difficult. The same problem applies to Savage to a lesser degree (because people in savage are required to play well, but it's still there).

Fights that are fairly difficult and requires more healing eventually get so much leeway due to party's gear ilvls increasing (for healer stats, party's HP, def stats, & party healing buff effects) to the point that downtime will always inevitably come back. This is just the nature of ilvls and making content readily accessible for everyone to clear.

If casual healers cannot handle the skill floor (which is just healing well), then having having increased damage will never be a possible option to the solution of removing healer downtime. The only effective solution would be to make healer downtime more fun through other means. The most cost-effective / least impactful way to go about this (without changing all the old content's encounter design) will be adding DPS skills because DPS skills is a last-priority focus for healers. After ensuring no one needs more healing, they can focus on their secondary role - which currently is DPS (Skill ceiling).

And this was discussed many many MANY pages ago in both this thread and in the "If you want more engaging content, go play ultimate" thread". This is the only logical conclusion healers can make for engagement while making this role accessible. Everyone who tried arguing against healer getting more DPS skills kept on trying to deny it, which is what led to this "echo chamber", because at this point, SE has been quite literally showing that every other option isn't working and hasn't been working for years now. Otherwise, there wouldn't be people asking about why the healer role is so empty right now in the interview.

[Raven2014]

Spamming Cure. Hundreds of times. Over and over. Is. Not. Fun.

Thanks for providing an example of hyperbolic and overdramatic. I rest my case as nothing else needed to be said.

lmao you people are unreal. "actually I do remember, and am capable of conceptualizing, when healers had marginally involved damage toolkits, and I don't want to go back I would rather healers stay braindead" incredible

If the 3.0 version is your "idea" of a good healer DPS model, I want none of it.

If you want to argue healer back then was more fun, then yes. But it was more fun because back then you have to manage your aggro, you have to manage your MP, you have to hard-shield not because someone gonna die, but to actually solve mechanic, you actually have to heal because the oGCD kit was fairly limited. It was FUN because it kept healer busy doing healer things, not because I had to maintain 2 DoTs.

And this was discussed many many MANY pages ago in both this thread and in the "If you want more engaging content, go play ultimate" thread". This is the only logical conclusion healers can make for engagement while making this role accessible. Everyone who tried arguing against healer getting more DPS skills kept on trying to deny it, which is what led to this "echo chamber", because at this point, SE has been quite literally showing that every other option isn't working and hasn't been working for years now. Otherwise, there wouldn't be people asking about why the healer role is so empty right now in the interview.

You're the first one who said it and probably won't be the last, so I'll response the same way I always did. That's not my problem.

As far as I can see SE is neither listening or doing whatever side wanted, and until they reach a decision, I will continue to advocate for my preferred solution to the problem. I don't get why people from the other of the arguments keep bringing up this and that and how I should just gave up and shut up because "SE not gonna do what you want anyway".

Well, have they done what you want?

As far as I see they haven't. Hell, if anything the trend seems to be the moving away the exactly the opposite direction of what you and yours are asking. But I don't see people see that as a reason for them to stop talking, so why should I?

[Deceptus]

Thanks for providing an example of hyperbolic and overdramatic. I rest my case as nothing else needed to be said.



If the 3.0 version is your "idea" of a good healer DPS model, I want none of it.

If you want to argue healer back then was more fun, then yes. But it was more fun because back then you have to manage your aggro, you have to manage your MP, you have to hard-shield not because someone gonna die, but to actually solve mechanic, you actually have to heal because the oGCD kit was fairly limited. It was FUN because it kept healer busy doing healer things, not because I had to maintain 2 DoTs.




You're the first one who said it and probably won't be the last, so I'll response the same way I always did. That's not my problem.

As far as I can see SE is neither listening or doing whatever side wanted, and until they reach a decision, I will continue to advocate for my preferred solution to the problem. I don't get why people from the other of the arguments keep bringing up this and that and how I should just gave up and shut up because "SE not gonna do what you want anyway".

Well, have they done what you want?

As far as I see they haven't. Hell, if anything the trend seems to be the moving away the exactly the opposite direction of what you and yours are asking. But I don't see people see that as a reason for them to stop talking, so why should I?

Point still stands and is never addressed:

What are healers supposed to do when there's no healing required? Why is their downtime engagement not given the same weight as the other two roles?