YPYT is griefing. Tank role is not "puller" role

[Deveryn]

I posted no strawman. At best I described what melees are capable of, at worst I described what I pulled off as a melee without causing anyone worries / when my tank imploded from standing in orange AOEs. The fact is there is no danger involved with a DPS pulling extra.

I called you out for a strawman argument because you tried to use "staying in Leylines despite dying" equivalence/projection, which is taking it from "DPS pulling extra into the tank" to "DPS not dodging the orange AOE and dying for it" - one insinuates that you actually do something about not dying, the other one clearly is not.

Either way, to meet in a healthy middle - I believe it is the tank's job to verbally explain if they are anxious and will tell people that they will pull less. The most common practice in non-verbal parties is wall-to-wall and cycling your cooldowns, so if you want to be non-standard, speak up. If people THEN go against the grain and force more on the tank, then we can actually start thinking about what needs to be done:

1.) Tank leaves / gets removed because they don't want to handle that pace forced upon them
2.) DPS/Healer leaves / gets removed because they don't want to handle the pace that the tank is putting up for them
3.) Everyone makes up and takes it as a challenge/chance to improve

Either way, YPYT is as stupid as going against the playstyle of the majority in the party.

I did a rolleyes at the end of my ley lines comment which was a separate point to begin with. I think if I put a "/s" after, you people still wouldn't understand the sarcasm in that point. I stopped feeling bad for having to bear witness to this level of incompetence a while back. You and a couple others have some kind of reading comprehension problem and can't seem to talk directly to my point and you go off on tangents.

[rxantos]

The reason the tank sets the pace is that is the tank that knows what mitigations it has available at any time.
Not the healer. Nor the DPS.

[Shurrikhan]

The reason the tank sets the pace is that is the tank that knows what mitigations it has available at any time.
Not the healer. Nor the DPS.

You realize that DPS cooldowns and healer CDs are equally important to surviving a trash pull, no?

Tank CDs are the most important for surviving a OHKO or extreme burst damage. As damage intake rates decrease, however, the value of greater flat recovery (as from healer CDs) or from ending the damage intake entirely before all mitigation and recovery CDs are too long exhausted (as from damage CDs) start to surpass them.

[LeonKeyh]

The reason the tank sets the pace is that is the tank that knows what mitigations it has available at any time.
Not the healer. Nor the DPS.

You realize that DPS cooldowns and healer CDs are equally important to surviving a trash pull, no?

Tank CDs are the most important for surviving a OHKO or extreme burst damage. As damage intake rates decrease, however, the value of greater flat recovery (as from healer CDs) or from ending the damage intake entirely before all mitigation and recovery CDs are too long exhausted (as from damage CDs) start to surpass them.

I'd even argue that healer CDs are more important than tank CDs; Tank should pretty much always have something available unless they're (for some reason) consistently doubling up on cooldowns. Using WAR as an example, here are the durations/cooldowns:

Rampart - 20s/90s
Reprisal - 10s/60s
Arm's Length - 15s/120s
Bloodwhetting - 12s/25s
Vengence - 15s/120s
Thrill of Battle - 10s/90s

Every 3 minutes, you'll have 192 seconds worth of mitigations (that's more than 3 minutes' worth). Hell, every other 3 minute window you'll get an extra use of the 120s mitigations giving you another 30s on top of that. At high levels, there is no argument for tanks "not having mits available." That also ignores the invuln every other 3 minutes (ish) too. Except for some "spicy" trash pulls, any one of those mitigation abilities combined with possibly a couple of healer CDs is enough. I'll repeat, healer CDs/resources definitely more of a problem than tanks having mits available.

[Chiharu_Sakurai]

You're right. It's entirely an ego thing.

The DPS ego that thinks they get the right to dictate how things will be done to the rest of the party and that it's up to the tank to meet their standards instead of the entire party talking things over.

Most players going into a dungeon with randoms are fine with the tank pulling at a pace the tank is comfortable with. It's only the egotistical DPS who feel otherwise.

So its perfectly fine to keep the entire party there for an extra 10-20m because the tank "doesnt feel comfortable" when it should be the healer who should be worried. Tank has one thing to worry about, grabbing all the mobs while pressing their two button AoE combo and popping a CD every 10-15s. Healers need juggle their resources (MP, Lillies, aetherflow, cards and whatever sage has) along with CDs, and watching the tanks health all while popping their AoE damage button.

If the DPS is getting annoyed at a single pull tank, its because they could be wiping out 2-3 packs of trash in the same amount of time as the ONE trash, while the healer (SCH/SGE mostly) is sitting there on most of their CDs because nothing is even coming close to hurting the tank.

Tell me, If I run Tam-tara as a SCH and the tank wall to walls that, and we complete it in 9m all the while pumping out damage, why should we stand for a tank pulling one or two enemies at time and it takes 20m to clear. At that point we dont even need a tank. Heck, I queued into Castrum, WAR of all things tried that single pull stunt, got mad at me going ahead of him, left. Me (SAM), a SGE and I think a SMN finished the dungeon without a tank, as I wound up tanking 2/3rds of that dungeon and only died once when I screwed up a boss mech.

You want to single pull please queue up for duty support.

The only time its acceptable to single pull is in criterion dungeons and if your tank and healer dont have the gear, though at that point you're probably better off just taking the L and dipping out.

[UkcsAlias]

So its perfectly fine to keep the entire party there for an extra 10-20m because the tank "doesnt feel comfortable" when it should be the healer who should be worried

Then the healer should pull. The healer is responsible for keeping the tank alive, and the tank is responsible for taking the aggro, if the tank at least does that, then the healer can still do its task.

Tanks might not be comfortable at first, but this can at least show him he can, do that a few times, and the tank might realize it better.

But its best noticed when the entire team is just running past the tank and waiting for him to follow. As at that point its not just the DPS alone, its the team. TPYT as a team is completely fine, as that is teamwork!

Still, it might be that i think that way because as tank i generaly try to w2w in most duties, however, in some dungeons im still going to be more careful (especialy when new to it). But even here, i will take at least 2 mobs. There is no reason to take 1, unless you are in satasha.

[Jojoya]

So its perfectly fine to keep the entire party there for an extra 10-20m because the tank "doesnt feel comfortable" when it should be the healer who should be worried.

It's not gong to take that much longer unless the DPS sucks, and if the DPS sucks then the tank shouldn't be chain-pulling in the first place because that's going to stress both them and the healer. LeonKyeh can write out all the defensives available but that 10% reduction from Reprisal isn't going to help a lot when the tank is still taking a beating from a dozen mobs because bad DPS hasn't thinned out the pack yet.

Naturally, the DPS is going to suck if all one of the DPS is doing is running back and forth to pulling mobs instead of letting the tank pull to get aggro properly so the mobs are grouped together for AoEing effectively. Imagine how much quicker engaged mobs would died if you had stayed to AoE them instead of wasting 10-15 seconds running around looking for more.

Server ticks are an awkward things, especially for those with higher ping. Let me pull as tank and I can tell if my AoE has hit all the targets properly. It doesn't always happen. There are times when one gets missed even though from my perspective it was the one closest to me. Thank you, bad server communication.

If you pull as DPS and they're following you in a string past me as you run behind, my AoE isn't going to hit them all. If you're left with something beating on you because you ran past me and they didn't get caught in my AoE, that's your problem. You can be smart and run it back to me so I can pick it up with my AoE, or you can take the beating. Me trying to run around after you to get the strays only makes things that much harder for the rest of the party. None of us can AoE effectively if the mobs are getting moved around and scattered to save your sorry butt and the healer may even feel obligated to stop their own DPS to heal you. There goes DPS even lower.

[ForteNightshade]

It's not gong to take that much longer unless the DPS sucks, and if the DPS sucks then the tank shouldn't be chain-pulling in the first place because that's going to stress both them and the healer. LeonKyeh can write out all the defensives available but that 10% reduction from Reprisal isn't going to help a lot when the tank is still taking a beating from a dozen mobs because bad DPS hasn't thinned out the pack yet.

While it depends on the dungeon, the higher up you go, the more time can be shaved off. 10 minutes is entirely reasonable even if you took the exact same players into two separate dungeon runs, one where you single pull and one where you W2W. Furthermore, at higher levels, the stress on tanks is negligible. Warrior and Paladin are completely unkillable at 81+. So much, they can literally solo dungeons themselves. Hell, Warrior was doing that in Shadowbringer before Bloodwhetting was even a thing. There's a reason spamming Expert with a pre-made of Warrior + three DPS was (and still is) popular. A single pulling tank takes so little damage, the role is entirely useless in such a situation. A Melee with bloodbath can handle three mobs without breaking a sweat.

Now I do agree that DPS/Healers who pull are responsible for bringing the mobs back to the tank. If they die due to running around in a panic, that's on them. You won't see any arguments against that mentality. It's when they do corral the mobs and literally stand on the tank who promptly refuses to AoE because their ego was bruised is when people take issue.

[Jojoya]

While it depends on the dungeon, the higher up you go, the more time can be shaved off. 10 minutes is entirely reasonable even if you took the exact same players into two separate dungeon runs, one where you single pull and one where you W2W. Furthermore, at higher levels, the stress on tanks is negligible. Warrior and Paladin are completely unkillable at 81+. So much, they can literally solo dungeons themselves. Hell, Warrior was doing that in Shadowbringer before Bloodwhetting was even a thing. There's a reason spamming Expert with a pre-made of Warrior + three DPS was (and still is) popular. A single pulling tank takes so little damage, the role is entirely useless in such a situation. A Melee with bloodbath can handle three mobs without breaking a sweat.

And yet that DPS running off by themselves is still a DPS loss for the group because they aren't doing any. It's a DPS loss when the mobs are scattered to different enmity targets so AoEs aren't hitting everything - mobs that are scattered because they pulled instead of letting the tank pull so everything comes to them.

In the long run, nothing is gained when the DPS goes on an ego trip.

Maybe just have a conversation with the tank in the first place? "Hey, I think this is a good group and we'll be fine if you pull more at the same time" instead unilaterally deciding to run off to get more? Most tanks will cooperate if you are polite about it. They're going to dig in their heels when you're being a jerk about it. That's human nature.

[dspguy]

If the DPS is getting annoyed at a single pull tank, its because they could be wiping out 2-3 packs of trash in the same amount of time as the ONE trash, while the healer (SCH/SGE mostly) is sitting there on most of their CDs because nothing is even coming close to hurting the tank.
<snip etc etc etc>

While I might agree that I prefer wall-to-wall pulls and killing 2-3 sets of mobs vs just 1... if I'm going to exhibit the attitude you have, I would just go play a console game where I can control the other NPCs.

Other players aren't NPCs. If someone wants every dungeon to be played a certain way, every time, then go play a solo console game.