YPYT is griefing. Tank role is not "puller" role

[Deveryn]

If melee jobs can survive an Onslaught of three to four mobs that he pulls to the tank then the tank is not exactly in a position to scream "this is too much for me!". At that point I'd ask him to turn off tank stance every second pull and focus on damage.

Don't try to call me on strawman then pull the same shit. I never said anything about it being too much. Few people do in this YPYT argument. It's about making more work for the healer and tank. This is about non-tanks sprinting out of the gate to pick things up, when the best approach for the tank is to actually pop sprint just ahead of the mobs to gather everything and space out the damage and get everything situated for the DPS.

DPS should worry less about pulling mobs / rushing the party along and think more about actually getting a decent burst off on ALL the mobs when the tank has them all together.

[dspguy]

This is just false equivalency that is easy to decipher. If I'm tanking and a dps or healer pulls mobs to me, I'll just collect them as its my job to make sure theyre not hitting the party(even be thankful). It's not the end of the world if they pull and I can still do my role if they do this wisely and everyone is happy.

As a tank, purposefully avoiding picking up threat and avoiding protecting the party(your role) because of some internalized payback to those not catering to "YOUR" playstyle is an entirely different beast.

As per my other post, what if the context is an instanced dungeon like Eureka or Bozja. And your DPS or healer trains over multiple Tier V or whatever enemies that will wipe your party. Do you still grab them? Or is it griefing?

If the healer wasn't prepared for 20 adds and they are pulled anyway - is the healer griefing if they don't keep the party alive?

It is not a false equivalence because you say so.

[LittleImp]

Don't try to call me on strawman then pull the same shit. I never said anything about it being too much. Few people do in this YPYT argument. It's about making more work for the healer and tank. This is about non-tanks sprinting out of the gate to pick things up, when the best approach for the tank is to actually pop sprint just ahead of the mobs to gather everything and space out the damage and get everything situated for the DPS.

DPS should worry less about pulling mobs / rushing the party along and think more about actually getting a decent burst off on ALL the mobs when the tank has them all together.

"The best approach";

Based on what? Your personal feelings about the matter? There are plenty of optimized settings in which DPS pulling for the tank is pretty common. It happens all the time in dungeon speeds, even in parties where they decline entirely to bring a healer. It's usually a net-neutral, and at best it can be an efficiency gain.

YPYT is just an ego thing.

As per my other post, what if the context is an instanced dungeon like Eureka or Bozja. And your DPS or healer trains over multiple Tier V or whatever enemies that will wipe your party. Do you still grab them? Or is it griefing?

I mean, in Bozja it's really common for non-tanks to run around and aggro a bunch of stuff and then pull it into a CE with the expectation that a tank will pick it up and everyone will get some clusters out of it. Tier V mobs usually only get aggroed by accident, and usually just rapidly kill the person who aggroed them anyway.

If the healer wasn't prepared for 20 adds and they are pulled anyway - is the healer griefing if they don't keep the party alive?

The healer is griefing if they intentionally opt not to even try. If they give it their genuine best shot, no one is going to call them a griefer.

[Deveryn]

"The best approach";

Based on what? Your personal feelings about the matter? There are plenty of optimized settings in which DPS pulling for the tank is pretty common. It happens all the time in dungeon speeds, even in parties where they decline entirely to bring a healer. It's usually a net-neutral, and at best it can be an efficiency gain.

YPYT is just an ego thing..

Do whatever you like in PF. I'm talking about roulettes. Standard practice is the tank handles mobs and adjusts the pace if need be, as you don't always get people in the best gear. That's what I've seen in my thousands of runs.

There's no ego involved in this, other than the person charging ahead, acting like they're doing anyone a favor. That's the epitome of ego: "I did this and you must be accepting and thankful"

[ForteNightshade]

Do whatever you like in PF. I'm talking about roulettes. Standard practice is the tank handles mobs and adjusts the pace if need be, as you don't always get people in the best gear. That's what I've seen in my thousands of runs.

There's no ego involved in this, other than the person charging ahead, acting like they're doing anyone a favor. That's the epitome of ego: "I did this and you must be accepting and thankful"

Isn't the whole argument for Roulette "anything goes. So deal with it"? You do realize that applies to both sides, yes? Therefore, if you're a tank who only likes small pulls, you can also go to PF and setup a premade. When it takes over an hour to fill maybe you'll start to realize people don't actually like small pulls.

It is entirely an ego thing. You can be annoyed by someone but still do your job. Turning off your stance and outright refusing to tank because the Dragoon aggro'd first is nothing but ego. Especially when the YPYT types will almost always type in chat about "teaching you a lesson."

[LittleImp]

Isn't the whole argument for Roulette "anything goes. So deal with it"? You do realize that applies to both sides, yes? Therefore, if you're a tank who only likes small pulls, you can also go to PF and setup a premade. When it takes over an hour to fill maybe you'll start to realize people don't actually like small pulls.

It is entirely an ego thing. You can be annoyed by someone but still do your job. Turning off your stance and outright refusing to tank because the Dragoon aggro'd first is nothing but ego. Especially when the YPYT types will almost always type in chat about "teaching you a lesson."

All he does is make broad, empty statements like "There is no ego involved" or "This is the best approach".

Most of his views seem to just revolve around his own personal feelings, which frankly isn't surprising at all in a thread with people unironically defending YPYT.

[Deveryn]

Isn't the whole argument for Roulette "anything goes. So deal with it"? You do realize that applies to both sides, yes? Therefore, if you're a tank who only likes small pulls, you can also go to PF and setup a premade. When it takes over an hour to fill maybe you'll start to realize people don't actually like small pulls.

It is entirely an ego thing. You can be annoyed by someone but still do your job. Turning off your stance and outright refusing to tank because the Dragoon aggro'd first is nothing but ego. Especially when the YPYT types will almost always type in chat about "teaching you a lesson."

I've never heard of such an argument, but I would say people should be prepared for suboptimal pulls as not everyone keeps their gear up to date. Other than that, to quote the great one, know your role and shut your mouth.

I've done none of these things. I've seen almost none of this. Some people in lower levels pull small because they're learning. I'm always getting everything. Go bother someone that actually causes whatever problems supposedly exist.

[Ravenwatch]

As per my other post, what if the context is an instanced dungeon like Eureka or Bozja. And your DPS or healer trains over multiple Tier V or whatever enemies that will wipe your party. Do you still grab them? Or is it griefing?

If the healer wasn't prepared for 20 adds and they are pulled anyway - is the healer griefing if they don't keep the party alive?

It is not a false equivalence because you say so.

I just outlined why it was false equivalency, and you have now rebounded to whataboutism AND strawmanning when I provided a clear and concise comparison of why they are different. It's not "because I say so".

It is not worth keeping this discussion up in good faith as you are constantly compromising that with fallacy over fallacy, but I'll humor your final point. In certain circumstances, you communicate and adjust where needed. Period. Obviously this stuff isn't cemented in stone.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Don't try to call me on strawman then pull the same shit. I never said anything about it being too much. Few people do in this YPYT argument. It's about making more work for the healer and tank. This is about non-tanks sprinting out of the gate to pick things up, when the best approach for the tank is to actually pop sprint just ahead of the mobs to gather everything and space out the damage and get everything situated for the DPS.

DPS should worry less about pulling mobs / rushing the party along and think more about actually getting a decent burst off on ALL the mobs when the tank has them all together.

I posted no strawman. At best I described what melees are capable of, at worst I described what I pulled off as a melee without causing anyone worries / when my tank imploded from standing in orange AOEs. The fact is there is no danger involved with a DPS pulling extra.

I called you out for a strawman argument because you tried to use "staying in Leylines despite dying" equivalence/projection, which is taking it from "DPS pulling extra into the tank" to "DPS not dodging the orange AOE and dying for it" - one insinuates that you actually do something about not dying, the other one clearly is not.

Either way, to meet in a healthy middle - I believe it is the tank's job to verbally explain if they are anxious and will tell people that they will pull less. The most common practice in non-verbal parties is wall-to-wall and cycling your cooldowns, so if you want to be non-standard, speak up. If people THEN go against the grain and force more on the tank, then we can actually start thinking about what needs to be done:

1.) Tank leaves / gets removed because they don't want to handle that pace forced upon them
2.) DPS/Healer leaves / gets removed because they don't want to handle the pace that the tank is putting up for them
3.) Everyone makes up and takes it as a challenge/chance to improve

Either way, YPYT is as stupid as going against the playstyle of the majority in the party.

[Jojoya]

It is entirely an ego thing. You can be annoyed by someone but still do your job. Turning off your stance and outright refusing to tank because the Dragoon aggro'd first is nothing but ego. Especially when the YPYT types will almost always type in chat about "teaching you a lesson."

You're right. It's entirely an ego thing.

The DPS ego that thinks they get the right to dictate how things will be done to the rest of the party and that it's up to the tank to meet their standards instead of the entire party talking things over.

Most players going into a dungeon with randoms are fine with the tank pulling at a pace the tank is comfortable with. It's only the egotistical DPS who feel otherwise.